Hi all, I am closing on a new - to - me Skywagon next week and I have kind of a silly question.

My background: I am an instructor, and have about 1500 hours with something like 500 hours of tailwheel time. This includes 170s and a handful of hours in 180s. I have always landed the 170s and 180s with full flaps... but I have taken a couple of hours in friends' 180s lately and none of them land with full flaps, always the second to last notch instead. They give different answers as to why so I figured I would ask a broader audience here: how much do you use?

I rarely land a 185 with full flaps. Not needed most of the time and much harder to get the tail down for a 3 point landing and in gusty ratty conditions you are very vulnerable to gusts at the slower speeds with full flaps. Watch your flap speeds, deploying flaps with too much speed is hard on things.

Kurt

My default is full flaps for landings. That said, there are a variety of situations that may suggest using less flaps. But, generally, those conditions suggest to me the use of 20 degrees of flap, NOT 30. Forty flaps has LOTS of drag. So does 30, just a wee bit less. Twenty degrees of flaps is far better in my experience in gusty conditions, for example....or when pioneering an off airport site for possible landing....ie: when not actually landing to a stop.

Those big flaps are a major drag device. To use full flaps on these airplanes, you have to work drag against thrust, which takes a little practice. But, forty flap landings are a thing of beauty when done right, and those big barn doors really help manage approach speed.

Frankly, when I see someone landing these airplanes with 30 flaps I figure they just haven't put in the time and practice to feel comfortable with full flaps.

BUT, as Kurt noted, there are times and places where less than full flaps works best.

Learn to use ALL the tools.

MTV

What MTV said. Full flaps were default for me as well, even in rough air. Rough air with full flaps and deceleration on short final to angle across in a very strong crosswind requires heavy use of throttle and rudder and leaving the damn ailerons alone. With the headwind component of a strong crosswind, one that makes centerline touchdown dicey, this airplane with those wonderful flaps can be safely landed at an angle across at very, very slow groundspeed.

Full flaps is "ops normal" for me, I prefer to hit the Earth going as slow as possible.

3 nitches for me unless I absolutely need the steepest approach angle, in which case, I probably can’t fly it out, as my takeoff length can be longer than landing. Easier go-around (less drag), less nose down attitude to transition through to 3 point, better throttle response to arrest sink rate during high AOA approaches.

Also what MTV said. Full is default, know how to use all the notches. I wish we had the 60 degrees, or whatever it is, that the L-19 has.

Wayne

As I’ve said in different threads, I don’t think I have enough experience to offer any advice on most things aviation. I did have the wagon bite me really bad early on. I let the airplane start to fly me instead of the other way around. I am now super aware of when things start to go sideways and work to fix it right away. I’ve learned to swallow the first approach pride and give it another try. For me every single landing in the wagon deserves my absolute attention. I have a mere 260hrs Skywagon time with a total PIC time of approx 600hrs(mostly 7BCM). I will say that I almost exclusively land at 40flaps for the same reason stated above(slow impact speed). I do experiment with different flaps to see how it feels and I enjoy trying to get a real good wheel landing too. But my goto is a tight pattern with high steep approach ending up with 40flap 3pointers. That’s what works best for me. I’m not a Skywagon or anything flying expert but I like flying and I want to keep doing it. Also, I always have my personal maximums for gusty cross windy days in mind.

Pulling air requires power, more relative wind, allows slower airspeed. Flaps, slats, dirty airplane, spreader, big tires.

L16Driver, the wheel landing need not be fast. Same as your three point, but level to touchdown. Descent must be arrested with power, if necessary, before leveling fuselage. None of that power off, stall down, big wheel bounce.

I regularly land in areas and on surfaces that could hold any number of "lurking" gotcha's. As I'm sure some will attest, you can inspect all you want but there is always an underlying risk with water or a snow covered surface be it lake or land. So therefor I prefer the shortest slide/roll-out possible so it full flap always. The added benefit is "repeatability" achieve by using a consistent configuration the majority of the time and honing those skills.

Contact, thanks and that was how was taught to perform my wheelies. That was in the champ. Same approach but the difference lies where i would haul back on the yoke to get the tail down. I relax the elevator pressure a bit without letting it go and wait for mains to touch. Haha I really should schedule some instruction to hammer home the finer points.

On wheels I always liked full. On floats I regularly use every flap setting depending on load, CG, wind, water condition, lake size, who is on board, etc.

I don't like to use the word always, because you should be able to use any setting available in certain conditions. But the overwhelming majority of my landings are full flap as slow as I can go. I also like to hit the earth as slow as possible.

A1Skinner wrote:I don't like to use the word always, because you should be able to use any setting available in certain conditions. But the overwhelming majority of my landings are full flap as slow as I can go. I also like to hit the earth as slow as possible.

I too don't like using the word always but always land with full flaps in my 180 . I just can't remember the last time I landed with less. I probably should go practice some landings with less flaps just for proficiency but with manual flaps there really aren't a lot of scenarios where using less makes sense to me. I have never run out of rudder in a crosswind and like landing as slow as possible. Keeping the same full flap setting makes the power flare in the STOL configuration very predictable and creates the shortest landing distance. The main risk using full flaps is the potential need for going around. I am usually trimmed full aft when landing and application of full power during a go around will require a moderate amount of arm strength to get the nose down before retracting the flaps to 20 degrees and adjusting the trim. Good to practice that procedure. The Cessna flap is well engineered and using 40 degrees is taking full advantage of every bit of performance the airplane has to offer.


Josh

I will occasionally practice with everything from zero to 40 degrees. I would guess that 80-90% of my landings are full flap, but when in a *really* strong gusting crosswind, for example, I like to use less. It's a control surface to me, just like any other. Use what makes sense for the situation. In reasonably calm air, that's full flaps for me. In white-knuckle gusty crosswinds, it's less.

I do Full flaps even in x-wind. Half flaps if really gusty. At least in my 180, I never have issues getting the tail down as someone pointed out. To be safe, practice full power go-arounds at altitude with flaps 40. Don’t get surprised by how the plane behaves down low if you do go-around.

c180pilot wrote:Also what MTV said. Full is default, know how to use all the notches. I wish we had the 60 degrees, or whatever it is, that the L-19 has.

Wayne

I was thinking about the Beavers flaps when I wrote my earlier bit. The Beaver flaps could go to about 50 or 60 degrees. The caution in the operators manual had verbiage like “60 degree flap setting for Emergency crash landings only”.

That kind of admonition got my attention. Never tried it, though I probably got close to fifty a time or four…

MTV

I use full flaps 99% of the time.
How about when windy and gusty, 182 many times I have done no flaps landings when 30kts / 35kts gusty winds.
How would that be on a tailwheel airplane? (still pretty new , less than 100hrs flying tailwheel.)

Great answers, thanks all. I wonder if the guys I know that aren't landing full flaps are just not comfortable with them or something else. I am looking forward to getting this bad boy over to me.

I'll throw my hat in with the always a full 40° on landing, unless there is a stiff x-wind then I drop them to 20° or 30°