907Pilot wrote:Great answers, thanks all. I wonder if the guys I know that aren't landing full flaps are just not comfortable with them or something else. I am looking forward to getting this bad boy over to me.

Not intending to criticize anyone's techniques, but frankly it seems like a LOT of folks really don't get a thorough check out in their airplanes, conducted by an instructor with a lot of experience in type. I will grant you that may be difficult to arrange in some cases, but.....

As a result, many either do a self checkout or get "checked out" by someone who really has little experience in the type. And, as the saying goes, they don't know what they don't know. Which is unfortunate, and sometimes results in accidents that might have been avoided with good training.

I'm always amused/astounded by aircraft owners who say they couldn't find a qualified instructor in their area for a certain type. So, you'll pay $150,000 for a plane, but are too cheap to hire an instructor to come to you?? Really?

So, good for you for asking questions. Make certain you get a good thorough checkout in the plane.

MTV

I was always a full flaps guy, but seems like I've been reading more and more respected sources that say unless you need a steep descent, 30 degrees is the sweet spot for slow, but not crazy steep. My default is now 30 degrees. 20 for floats, and crosswind. I like to practice with all flap settings just for kicks. Takeoff with 30 in a 3 point attitude seems pretty short.

The big advantage of full 40 degree of flaps on Cessnas is that when slow enough on short final to really sink without quite a bit of power, dynamic throttle will keep the proper descent rate and angle of descent without increasing airspeed. The visual que that this is happening and that we are going to touchdown slowly and softly on the numbers is that the numbers and area around the numbers does not appear to speed up. The same effect is possible with less degree of flaps, and with airplanes with less capable flaps, but the nose must be much higher making observation of the desired touchdown spot more difficult. The height and shape of the instrument panel is also a factor. Also any junk mounted on the panel.

This large and pretty fast cruise airplane can be easily landed at an angle to the centerline in a strong crosswind because of this airspeed control and pitch angle. Dynamic throttle necessary in gusts. Rudder, lots of rudder to level the wing, necessary as always when slow. If the nose is going down the centerline (rudder), or angled straight line in crosswind (rudder), the wing is automatically level or set at desired angle of bank for drift. Yes, MTV, aileron must be increased on roll out as the airplane slows down.

motoadve wrote:I use full flaps 99% of the time.
How about when windy and gusty, 182 many times I have done no flaps landings when 30kts / 35kts gusty winds.
How would that be on a tailwheel airplane? (still pretty new , less than 100hrs flying tailwheel.)

May as well make it 100%..... unless you just want to mix things up for shits and giggles...

30 -35 KTS wind, in a plane that lands at 40 MPH +/- if you are doing your part.... I don't understand why there would be a question here?

If you could land with a 5 -10 MPH ground speed every time, would there be any compelling reason to speed that up? At a 10 mph ground speed, is there a reason to hurt your airplane? or worry about centerline orientation?

Flaps are good. Wind is good. In fact, I consider big wind free flying... it's airspeed I didn't have to pay for in fuel.
If you are concerned about gusts, dump the flaps as soon as you touch, or just before, As such, full flaps down the home stretch prove to be an even more valuable tool, because not only have you slowed the short final, but upon dumping them you have instantly cut your lift by a huge margin, weighting it down like a sack of spuds, this reenergizes all the control you 'thought' you didn't have due to the slow speed mush. Much better choice than less flaps (same lift with less drag on most wings) that you carry for too long in the roll, now you arrive with a touch more 'action' in the ailerons, only to squirt in on the runway hot and light.

BTW, if you don't want a steep decent with full flaps, you aren't feeding it enough... You should be able to fly straight and level with full flaps, so what bearing they have on your decent angle is beyond me. I actually prefer steeper approaches in technical stuff, but bad habits from work usually find me flying very flat ones

Yes... I am a full flapper, and while I hate 'always', and 'never' as well, the only change I see me wanting in my flap future is more flap.

Take care, Rob

I love this guy. He makes me seem less like a crazy old man.

I also have the flat approach with full flaps habit from spraying and pipeline. The guys who come to fly with me who start the approach at 1,000 feet up and use a steep angle amaze me how well they do with the full flap power/pitch deceleration on short final that happens using the apparent brisk walk rate of closure regardless of glide angle. That last should be changed to power pitch angle, but then I would be in trouble with terminology again. We are not gliding. We are often at half throttle by touchdown. We are letting ourselves down easily with throttle.

Wind is our friend.

I use flaps 10 in crosswind because of Robertson stol reducing aileron authority. Otherwise always full flaps in anything else. In case of go around I worry more about getting rid of trim ASAP

I always land full flaps, someone once said, if you’re going to crash, crash slow.

Less energy on landing the better.

Only exception is major crosswinds

Rob wrote:
Yes... I am a full flapper, and while I hate 'always', and 'never' as well, the only change I see me wanting in my flap future is more flap.

Take care, Rob

Agree with everything you wrote Rob and using the word always and never sometimes creates controversy. My experience is the Skywagon (Early or late models 180/185s) can handle landing with 40 degrees of flaps in heavy gusty crosswinds. I was taught to use less like many others have posted but over time have just defaulted to being a full flapper. I fly frequently to the airports within the Columbia River Gorge where the wind typically gust 30-40 knots and is never straight down the runway. I have not had a problem landing with full flaps in such conditions. It really comes down to comfort level flying with wind and the same flap setting gives me the best control and slowest touchdown speed. There is a lot of coordination of rudder/aileron/elevator and power but this will also be needed with lesser flap settings. There is predictability and a known quantity of performance using the same flap setting for each landing. In the end it really comes down to one's comfort level and proficiency. An argument could be made for using less flaps in a gusty crosswind just in case there is need for a go-around making that transition a bit easier.


Josh

Well.......the arguments to use more flaps to slow the airplane are mostly fantasy.....note I said "mostly".

From the 1985 Cessna 185 POH, the difference in calibrated (or indicated for that matter) stall airspeed between 20 degrees and 40 degrees of flaps is 2 knots. That's it. Frankly, most pilots probably couldn't tell a difference in two knots in touchdown speed. That said, I totally agree that touchdown slower is better, even if all you get is a couple knots.

And, various wing modifications may change that ratio some, but probably not much. The RSTOL 185 stall speed is listed as 37 knots, for reference, compared to the same wing stock, at 49 knots CAS with full flaps (and aft CG).

BUT, what full flaps DOES do is provide drag....huge buckets of drag. And, that's why I use full flaps most of the time. That big drag, opposed by judicious use of power, is a powerful tool on approaches, whether they be steeper, over obstacles, or in wide open spaces.

In a GUSTY wind.....and, please note I am not talking about "wind", I'm specifically talking about "gusty winds", less drag MAY be helpful, but not always. Much of my flying in Skywagons was in RSTOL equipped versions, where the ailerons also droop with flap deflection, so in those airplanes, reducing drag can be pretty helpful in a gusty wind condition. With lots of drag from a gust, it's harder to compensate with enough power, then get back out of the power quickly enough. Can it be done? Absolutely. But, I'm lazy, frankly.

So, long ago, I got into the habit of reducing flap deflection in gusty conditions, IN RSTOL airplanes. And, sometimes habits stick around, even if the ailerons aren't drooping. Point is, use all the tools, and use them the way you're most comfortable and offers the best performance for YOU.

Nevertheless, the gusts have to be pretty enthusiastic before I even think about using less than full flaps in most Cessnas.

Finally, note that nowhere in this latest dissertation did I say use the term "Crosswind". I'm talking here about gusty wind, regardless of the direction it comes from.

MTV

mtv wrote:Well.......the arguments to use more flaps to slow the airplane are mostly fantasy.....note I said "mostly".

From the 1985 Cessna 185 POH, the difference in calibrated (or indicated for that matter) stall airspeed between 20 degrees and 40 degrees of flaps is 2 knots. That's it. Frankly, most pilots probably couldn't tell a difference in two knots in touchdown speed. That said, I totally agree that touchdown slower is better, even if all you get is a couple knots.

And, various wing modifications may change that ratio some, but probably not much. The RSTOL 185 stall speed is listed as 37 knots, for reference, compared to the same wing stock, at 49 knots CAS with full flaps (and aft CG).

BUT, what full flaps DOES do is provide drag....huge buckets of drag. And, that's why I use full flaps most of the time. That big drag, opposed by judicious use of power, is a powerful tool on approaches, whether they be steeper, over obstacles, or in wide open spaces.

In a GUSTY wind.....and, please note I am not talking about "wind", I'm specifically talking about "gusty winds", less drag MAY be helpful, but not always. Much of my flying in Skywagons was in RSTOL equipped versions, where the ailerons also droop with flap deflection, so in those airplanes, reducing drag can be pretty helpful in a gusty wind condition. With lots of drag from a gust, it's harder to compensate with enough power, then get back out of the power quickly enough. Can it be done? Absolutely. But, I'm lazy, frankly.

So, long ago, I got into the habit of reducing flap deflection in gusty conditions, IN RSTOL airplanes. And, sometimes habits stick around, even if the ailerons aren't drooping. Point is, use all the tools, and use them the way you're most comfortable and offers the best performance for YOU.

Nevertheless, the gusts have to be pretty enthusiastic before I even think about using less than full flaps in most Cessnas.

Finally, note that nowhere in this latest dissertation did I say use the term "Crosswind". I'm talking here about gusty wind, regardless of the direction it comes from.

MTV

X2 on the gust standpoint

I use 40 flaps unless I’m trying something else for proficiency. Regarding stall speed, yes there’s not much difference up and away when there’s no “limit” on pitch attitude, but for landing I don’t like touching down tailwheel first. For fun this weekend I checked my minimum level flight airspeed at different flap settings and in a tail low landing attitude I could fly 10 knots slower with full flaps vs. 20. I know, I that’s not exactly the same circumstance (power on, out of ground effect). Since landing would be at lower power (less benefit on flaps of the blown wing portion) and in ground effect I suspect the difference is less than the 10 knots I saw up and away, but certainly more than the 2 knots listed in the POH. I guess I’ll add some IGE maneuvers down the runway next weekend to explore more relevant conditions and landing speed.

You're approaching the relevant IGE airspeed and flap benefit fredy. If we are slow enough on short final, and full flaps help, to require quite a bit of power and pitch to prevent mushing too low on desired glide angle and having too much rate of descent, we can carry that considerable power and pitch (even increase both) all the way to touchdown. When we decelerate to slow enough on short final to bring throttle into play, throttle is just as dynamic as elevator and rudder (aileron is not helpful here except to set wing against any drift). We can blow as mush air over that inner wing as we wish without increasing airspeed. Slow requires pitch requires power...all good. It is nice to be able to utilize the least pitch up because this gives us the best view of the desired touchdown "spot and the perspective in which it appears and the apparent motion." (Stick and Rudder) Full flaps lower the pitch attitude necessary to get this sink and they cause extreme increase in drag and along with pitch up sink allow lots of prop blast air over the inner wing all the way to touchdown IGE at an airspeed well below OGE Vso.

The difference in Vso at full or partial flaps out of ground effect is irrelevant to landing. Here we are interested in stalling down as slow as possible in very low ground effect with power. OGE Vso would cause the airplane to bounce every time. OGE Vso, IGE Vso: Apples and oranges. They have little to do with each other. I look forward to your data on IGE Vso with full flaps and power blast over the wing. Actually, most airspeed indicators don't go there.

What Rob said! Full flaps every time. Go practice. Just feed it more if you can't maintain altitude. Remember pitch for airspeed. Power helps you maintain altitude. I'm not a fan of big long roll outs. Get it slow and get it stopped. = Full flaps

AKT

Hey everyone,

I have a couple hundred hours in a 68 182. I typically do 10 deg abeam the numbers, 20 after turning base and 40 half way down +/- on final. When are you guys typically putting in the full flaps?

Thanks

40 as soon as I turn final a quarter mile out. This helps with deceleration to maintain what appears to be a brisk walk rate of closure with the numbers.

Am I the only one who scratches their head when acronyms are "tossed" into the conversation without defining then previously.

Sorry. IGE is In Ground Effect. OGE is Out of Ground Effect. Vso is an Out of Ground Effect airspeed for when the wing stalls with full flaps. There is no airspeed in the Pilot Operating Handbook for when the airplane stalls in very low ground effect, which of course is where it should be full stalled or near full stalled (wheel landing) to land slowly.

The use of Velocity stall everything out, Vso, in association with landing is confusing. The wing will still be flying in ground effect at that airspeed. Since ground effect cannot be escaped during landing, it should be covered more extensively. IGE should be as common as OGE and discussions of the sounds and feel of much slower but still flying below Vso in ground effect should be conducted.

Vso in connection with stabilized approach is logical. Vso in connection with landing airspeed is misinformation. Stabilized approach to short final is logical. Beyond there it is a guarantee of round out, hold off, and a faster and longer than necessary landing.

Flaps / no flaps discussion seems to have run it's course.
How about wheel landing vs 3 point, or wing-low vs crab--
maybe we can ruffle some more feathers.

Hi Hotrod,

I'd agree, but this gentleman had a question. I think it's a good one, and while I'm certainly not in the position to provide instruction, I certainly don't mind sharing my take on flaps

Lucky wrote:Hey everyone,

I have a couple hundred hours in a 68 182. I typically do 10 deg abeam the numbers, 20 after turning base and 40 half way down +/- on final. When are you guys typically putting in the full flaps?

Thanks

For a guy with a couple hundred hours in type, presumably in the city, you're doing as expected... and that's, not a terrible thing. In that environment the goal is to be safe, and predictable for controllers and other pilots alike.

The goal for fun, and safer flying (in any environment) is to learn your wing. It will tell you what it wants, and that is all that matters. Outside of an 'airport' setting you may elect for any of number of reasons to fly a non standard pattern, and of course there is not likely to be any 'numbers'. Arbitrarily assigning 'locations' to lower flaps, will not help you in those settings. In fact in your airport environment it is not a great practice, it's just a 'get you buy while you learn' practice.

Manual flaps, or even electric or hydraulic flaps that don't have detents for fixed locations are infinitely adjustable, and consequently fit a wider variety of situations easier, but even with fixed flap settings you are still flying a machine in three dimension with variable speeds, so the combinations are only limited by mechanical limitations, safety, and what the wing wants...

Lastly, on most airplanes flaps are pretty easy to 'overspeed'. On some over built examples this simply leads to inefficient flying, but on our wonderful light examples it leads to damage. On 182's that damage typically manifests itself in convcaved lower flap skin surfaces, and beat up wore out flap tracks. If you want to be kinder to your airplane, learn to use your flaps such that they feel like they are just another trim wheel. Slow the airplane down to the point that it wants you to add flaps to fly the same as it just was... If you are using flaps to slow down, rather than to help you maintain a desired flight profile after you've slowed down, you are adding them in too hot. In other words, don't use the flaps to change the way your airplane is flying, use them to keep flying the way it was for as long as you can. Done like this you will learn to slow it down and be kinder to the system, and you will arrive at full flaps each and every time, because you have ran out of trim... (flaps) to add. And for the sake of those that do not land with full flaps, I will add the caveat that you will land as close to full flaps as your comfort level allows

Take care, Rob

PS, somewhere above I said flaps are good.... that is only true until you break them or burn out a flap motor ..... So be kind to them!

Excellent response Rob, frankly I was puzzled as to how to even begin.

Lucky, I'll just add that nearly all backcountry strips that are worth landing have non-standard "patterns". And lots of times the entire "pattern" has to be flown as slow as possible due to the constraining nature of the terrain.

Good news is you can practice this at any airport if the traffic allows (if it doesn't go somewhere it does).