Anyone here regularly spin their plane (intentionally)? While I haven't spun the '56 C172 I currently own, I did do a few spins with the CFI that taught me to fly in a 150 with the rudder stop AD. I went out today with the same CFI today and did full stalls in steep climbing turns and cross controlled stalls (as in a forward slip). I'd like to get to the point where I'm comfortable doing spins and chase that boogey man away.

Thanks.

Frank

I spun my 150 and Citabria lots. Never tried it in the 180 and not sure I want to...

A1,

Are spins authorized in a 180 in Utility category as they are in most/all 172s? If they are, why not spin it? I've not flown a 180 so have no experience with them and understand they are heavier on the controls than a 172. I have flown a couple of WW2 trainers- PT19 and N3N which are also much heavier on the controls but were used to teach spins and other aerobatic maneuvers. If it's value of the airplane I certainly understand that.

Thanks.

Frank

I need to read through my POH again and see, but i don't think that spins are approved. I'm sure the brain trust on here can say if they are or not.

To the best of my knowledge, Spins are not approved in any of the Cessna 180/185 models.

Also, be VERY careful in the airplane you choose to spin. While spins may be legal, you need to verify that you are within the spin approved weight and CG, and also verify that any modifications to the airplane haven't removed spins from the airplane's approved maneuver list.

I've spun a number of aerobatic airplane and some utility category airplanes. But, again a little research is warranted. Example: The J-3 Cub is generally approved for spins. The almost identical PA-11 is not approved for spins. Go figure, but I'm not going to spin my 11.

MTV

Rent a few hours in a Citabria or Decathlon with a good instructor and spin your heart out.
It wont take but a few times around for you to get the feel for whats going on.
You never thought the world could go around so fast. (Don't stare at the nose of the plane or you wont remember what county you're in) But after a few, they will become fun.

Another thing you can do to get over stall/spin is a maneuver that makes the plane fall like a leaf.
No idea what it's really called but you keep the plane right on the edge of a stall, stall it and use the rudder to swing the plane left and right as you barely recover and restall the plane. It looks like a leaf swinging back and forth as it falls. Really helps you understand what happens at the point where the wing stops flying.

Practicing book stall recovery is important and needed to pass the exam but does little to help the student become comfortable in that realm of flight. If anything, the instructor can instill fear by ONLY training book recovery - thus the boogie man analogy.

I don't spin the 170 only because it seems like undue stress on 60 year old aluminum.

C180's are certified in normal category, not at all in utility.
Although most people consider the 180 & similar as "utility airplanes", the FAA has a different definition.

I used to do aileron rolls in my C150/150TD, kinda slow but do-able.
No way I'd do it in the 180.

I can relate to the OP comment about chasing away the bogey man. I hired an instructor and Citabria one time hoping to gain some spin experience, but the lesson was a bust.

Obviously there's limits to the analogy, but I think of it like becoming comfortable taking a leader fall, or rolling a kayak. Until you're comfortable and confident in those realms, being upside down or coming unstuck are scary to the point of inhibiting further development. Once you can roll pretty much any kayak anywhere anytime either side, with or without a paddle, it opens all kinds of doors.

-DP

I don't spin my 170 because it's really hard on the gyros (which I believe is why they are no longer required in the PTS for a license), but there's nothing to spins once you're used to them. I spent a day in a J-3 just doing spins...had a blast. Did one 16 turn spin to 1000 feet AGL. In an hour or so I could spin left or right and recover to a heading +/- 15 degrees. Done correctly there's very little stress on the airframe.

Worst mistake I made getting my license was not doing the spin training right up front. Once I was used to spins I couldn't believe how much energy I wasted stressing about stalls. If I was ruler of the earth spins would be mandatory in the first 3 hours of primary flight training.

Spins and spiral dives are part of the PPL curriculum in Canada so I've done quite a few lately in the school 172.

One of my instructors really likes doing spins so after numerous repetitions I've been able to calmly assess the situation and take appropriate corrective action. The other one is not nearly as comfortable and the last one we did together he jumped on the rudder after 1 1/2 rotations, just as I was about to. Then he said 'Good job, let's move on.' I haven't flown with him since.

I will definitely say that repetition takes the fear away.

albravo wrote:Spins and spiral dives are part of the PPL curriculum in Canada so I've done quite a few lately in the school 172.

One of my instructors really likes doing spins so after numerous repetitions I've been able to calmly assess the situation and take appropriate corrective action. The other one is not nearly as comfortable and the last one we did together he jumped on the rudder after 1 1/2 rotations, just as I was about to. Then he said 'Good job, let's move on.' I haven't flown with him since.

I will definitely say that repetition takes the fear away.

Yup, repetition is good. And it's kinda fun.
Thanks MTV for confirming what I thought I knew about the 180s.

A1Skinner wrote:

albravo wrote:Spins and spiral dives are part of the PPL curriculum in Canada so I've done quite a few lately in the school 172.

One of my instructors really likes doing spins so after numerous repetitions I've been able to calmly assess the situation and take appropriate corrective action. The other one is not nearly as comfortable and the last one we did together he jumped on the rudder after 1 1/2 rotations, just as I was about to. Then he said 'Good job, let's move on.' I haven't flown with him since.

I will definitely say that repetition takes the fear away.

Yup, repetition is good. And it's kinda fun.
Thanks MTV for confirming what I thought I knew about the 180s.

The question piqued my curiosity, so I checked the Type Certificate for the 180. All models have some verbiage like this in the TC:

(a) "This airplane must be operated as a Normal Category airplane in compliance with operating limitations stated in the form of placards, markings, and manuals. No acrobatic maneuvers, including spins, approved.

MTV

The Cherokee 140, a utility category plane, was great to spin. Flew one with a gyro that didn't cage and upset the instrument.
My Citabrias were a blast to spin. Never spun a Cessna only because they were rentals and I was never sure of their fatigue. I always felt that spin training was necessary for all pilots. Probably aerobatic experience is also a good idea to make recovery from an unusual attitude more automatic. Remember that Bob Hoover's only broken bone happened with a go cart!

Bagarre wrote:Another thing you can do to get over stall/spin is a maneuver that makes the plane fall like a leaf.
No idea what it's really called

It is in fact called a falling leaf. Lots of fun and a good way to show someone how to pick up the nose of the airplane with the rudder. I use do do it in my Decathlon, it's a rougher ride in the Pitts but still a good learning tool. I'm not a CFI, so "it's just a couple of pilots going out for a flight sharing expenses", but a few of the local pilots in my area have figured out that having a good attitude and adding fuel to my tank will get them a hop in the Pitts to the practice area to do a few unusual attitude and spin maneuvers. Pilot weight limits for the pax top at 185# though, so some heavyweights have missed out. (I'm the heavyweight in the back ). Too bad spins were removed from the PP sylibus. My belief is every pilot should have unusual attitude and spin training, and know how to not "recover" themselves into a crossover spin.

Rich

So it looks like C180/5s and PA11s are out for spins but many others are authorized but not spun. As Hammer said a properly done spin is near a 1G maneuver yet most of us don't do them. While it is tough on un-cageable gyros I'd bet that for most of us, me included, that's not the reason that prevents us from doing spins. Citabrias and Cubs aren't the only spinable airplanes and I' rather have the feel for them, both going in and coming out, in myairplane than in a Citabria or a Decathalon. I would be all in to get in some Cub time though.

MTV, I asked my IA at my last annual if there were any AD's that would prevent spinning my straight tail 172 and he said no. Can you think of any mods that would affect the safety of spinning my airplane as long as it is still able to be operated in the utility category where spins are authorized?

As I said in the original post I have done a few spins with an instructor and definately understand the "spinning world" analogy. The first one is absolutely an attention getter. I also agree that occasional repetition would allow better understanding of the limits of the full flight envelope available in my airplane so I can stay within it while utilizing the full performance available.

Bagarre, the CFI that taught me to fly competed in sportsman class aerobatic competition. He's also the guy that I just did stalls with in steep climbing turns and while cross controlled. He once mentioned going out to practice stalls and "walking the stall" down. I'd bet that this is the same as the falling leaf type stall that you're describing. I'll connect up with him to follow up and do some. While I'm comfortable doing most stalls, it sounds like it might be able to get in some trouble working the rudder while moving into and out of a stall.

I agree with Hammer that we would benefit from having spins be a routine part of training. I'm also a bit envious of Albravo doing them regularly in his trainer, good on ya.

Having spent a fair amount of time upside down in a kayak in significant whitewater, Denali Pilot's analagy of rolling a kayak is approptiate. Steep creeking and intimidating whitewater in a kayak is the same type of situation, more mental than physical.

Thanks.

Frank

Spinning itself actually puts very little stress on an airplane. It's the pull out from the dive that puts on the most stress, and unless that's done really ham-handedly, that's not all that bad. As for gyros being adversely affected, the DE I had for my commercial, IR, and CFII had a C152 Aerobat that he used as an aerobatic trainer and as an instrument trainer. When I was doing my CFII oral with him, we were chatting over lunch, and I asked him about having the same airplane for aerobatic and instrument training. He poo-pooed the idea of damage to the instruments by telling me that his airplane had about 1600 hours on it at the time and the original gyros worked just fine.

Mike makes a good point about what mods can do to spin authorization. For instance, any airplane which was authorized for spins that has an Avcon conversion loses its authorization, because the folks in Kansas didn't go through the necessary STC testing process. Since there is a weight penalty of about 35 lbs. going from the Continental 300 series to the Lycoming 360 series in the conversion which also affects balance, it's enough of a W&B change that proper flight testing would have been required to maintain the spin authorization. There's less of a weight difference between a Lycoming 320 and a 360, but the same rule applies--spins aren't authorized.

As for spinning 172s, they actually will spin pretty well, but they're hard to start spinning, and full spin inputs must be maintained to keep them there. They spin more easily to the left than to the right, although once in the spin, they spin about the same either direction. I always found that starting with a little power, like about 1500 rpm, was necessary to make a good break. Leave the power in for the first half turn, then pull it off, and recover when you decide to, using normal PARE recovery (power off, ailerons neutral, opposite rudder until the turning stops, then elevators to neutral to unstall the wing, then pull out of the dive). On 172s, it's not necessary to shove the yoke forward hard--the word "smartly" comes to mind (that's not true of all airplanes--with some, full forward yoke/stick is necessary). The 172 will stop spinning after roughly another half turn, sometimes a little less, after opposite rudder is applied (again not true of all airplanes--some, especially after several turns, can require as much as another 1 1/2 turns after opposite rudder is applied).

The only critical item about spinning 172s specifically is that they must be within the utility W&B envelope for safety--for all practical purposes, that means 2 in front, no weight in back either in the seats or baggage area. A CG that is too far back will likely make the spin flatten and much harder to recover, if at all. A critical item about spinning most airplanes including the 172 is maintaining neutral ailerons--failure to do that can aggravate the spin.

In olden times, CFIs were required to be quite proficient in spins and spin recovery and demonstrate that proficiency during the checkride. The Inspector I flew with required recovery within 10 degrees of the direction he specified. Now the requirement has been relaxed, so that the reg says the applicant must:

(1) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor indicating that the applicant is competent and possesses instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures after providing the applicant with flight training in those training areas in an airplane or glider, as appropriate, that is certificated for spins; and

(2) Demonstrate instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures. However, upon presentation of the endorsement specified in paragraph (i)(1) of this section an examiner may accept that endorsement as satisfactory evidence of instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures for the practical test.... [unless it's a retest because of deficiency in that proficiency].

In other words, now a CFI applicant can show up in an airplane not certificated for spins, and so long as he/she has the endorsement and can adequately describe spins and spin recovery, that's good enough. In my view, that's not good enough, as it's too easy for a student to put an airplane into an incipient spin that requires prompt instructor intervention. I think any instructor must be truly proficient in spin recovery.

Cary

Another point which hasn't been made here yet: You folks who claim you are regularly spinning your aircraft are wearing approved parachutes while doing so, and doing so with a certified flight instructor on board, correct?

Please reference 91.307:

(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds—

(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or

(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.

(d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to—

(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or

(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by—

(i) A certificated flight instructor

In other words, the ONLY time you can practice spins legally without a parachute is when you are engaged in the training required for the CFI, and a CFI must be aboard for that training to be legal, or during a flight test, and to the best of my knowledge, the only flight test which requires spins is the initial CFI.

Any time I have done spins without parachutes with someone, I have been careful to log the flight in their and my logbooks as flight training toward the spin training requirement of the Flight Instructor certificate. Note that you can do so with a Private Pilot holder. They don't have to be actively pursuing a CFI at the time. You're just prepping them for that training.

Be careful out there folks.....there are lots of ways to get in trouble with spins.....know what you're doing before you go there or allow someone to talk you into doing so.

FWIW

MTV

I always read that to mean parachutes are required if you're carrying passengers.
If you are solo, 'chutes are optional.

" Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds--"

Isn't the pilot considered to be a crew member?? If not, why would crew members be exempt from 'chutes but not the pilot?

When you fly solo, you are the sole crew member and thus, no 'chute is needed.

Your buddy going up in the right seat is not a crew member so, HE is required to wear a chute but still not the pilot.

I asked for spin training during my PPL instruction and really enjoyed it. I did spins during during my first couple BRFs and learned something every time. Matt7GCBC had me do simulated base to final turns while cross controlled and it was exhilarating when a wing let go and the plane wrapped up into a spin. The feel is very different than a standard stall/spin entry.

I know it is obvious but I think it is worth noting; spinning a different airplane should be approached with caution. I can't remember which instructor I was flying with, probably my primary instructor, but we discovered that in the Luscombe you have to hold the stick all the back when doing spins. If you release a little elevator the spin turns into a spiral and the plane accelerates very quickly. Hold the stick all the way back and the airspeed stays nice and slow.

Bagarre wrote:I always read that to mean parachutes are required if you're carrying passengers.
If you are solo, 'chutes are optional.

" Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds--"

Isn't the pilot considered to be a crew member?? If not, why would crew members be exempt from 'chutes but not the pilot?

When you fly solo, you are the sole crew member and thus, no 'chute is needed.

Your buddy going up in the right seat is not a crew member so, HE is required to wear a chute but still not the pilot.

Yes, you're essentially correct. Point is, be careful out there. Even when wearing a parachute.....there's a reason aerobatic aircraft have quick release doors as well......

MTV