Those Cessna engineers must have been prescient or something. They actually made a version of the 180 that could only take off tail-up:

Haha, nice one ^^

The beauty of the tailwheel design for bush flying is that it allows you to keep the propeller higher up out of rocks and debris when you mash the power from a standstill. Should you mash the power in rocks or gravel? That's debatable, but the tailwheel design has the advantage of keeping that prop "cone of suck" a little higher up. I think a balance of high angle of attack and floating the tailwheel just barely off the surface is the best compromise. Viz certains adds to the equation, but that's what peripheral vision is for.

Zzz.
That is exactly the take off that I have been using as well, tail low, can raise the tail if needed and if needed get it back on the ground quickly, let it fly off.

robw56 wrote:I like getting the tail up on takeoff as soon as possible for better visibility and to protect the tailwheel on rough ground, I don't think using brakes is the best idea though. Just start your roll with down elevator like others have said.

FWIW, this is what I do too.

svanarts wrote:

robw56 wrote:I like getting the tail up as soon as possible. Just start like others have said.

FWIW, this is what I do too.

Me too, I just can't as often or as hi as I used to?

M6RV6 wrote:

svanarts wrote:

robw56 wrote:I like getting the tail up as soon as possible. Just start like others have said.

FWIW, this is what I do too.

Me too, I just can't as often or as hi as I used to?

any day I can get my tail up is a good one!

FWIW, this is what I do too.

Me too, I just can't as often or as hi as I used to?

:) any day I can get my tail up is a good one!

At 29, I can't hardly keep mine down

Jeredp wrote:

FWIW, this is what I do too.

Me too, I just can't as often or as hi as I used to?

:) any day I can get my tail up is a good one!

At 29, I can't hardly keep mine down

Don't worry your time will come!

Interesting thread... I like the tail light when I am trying to depart, but can't wrap my head around the notion of holding brakes and laying the whip to it when my goal is to takeoff?

oh yeah.... I can see myself trying to sort that out after a long night Ummm brakes or throttle??? C'mon Rob... we're running out of strip here.... Oh hell... Mash everything... Something oughta get her flying


I also don't understand this 'save the tail' concept ? On every plane I fly, the prop is worth more than the tail wheel, hell in another thread Whee wants to ditch the tail wheel altogether.... Shows just how much that damn things worth....

Besides,.... that thing that the prop is bolted to is worth more than the whole airframe.... hmmm.... Risk the tail wheel.... Vs risk the pponk ....

Never fails, every time I think I'm starting to get the hang of this flying jazz someone throws a new monkey wrench in the program..

I too didn't get that whole get on the brakes to raise the tail thing. We 're taking off right, not just slow taxing with the tail up? Turning around on a gravel bar the other day I used brakes to get the tail up and to spare the tailwheel some abuse on the mostly grapefruit and a few cantalope sized rocks (no baby head sized rocks ), once lined up and ready to go no brakes were involved! Go and brakes don't belong together when talking airplane takeoffs.

Just trying to get this to 10 pages.

The goal regarding the "little wheel" is the same regardless of its location. Whether the little wheel is in the rear or the front we all want it off the ground as soon as possible. The fact is, we can't take off until it is off the ground. Of course, same thing applies to the big wheels, too!

My 2 cents. I wish it only cost 2 cents. My engine should be back from the engine shop soon. After a minor prop strike, my airplane has been down for 4 months. With the BS from the insurance company over what is wear and tear and what is required for a prop strike inspection, I would much rather have bought a tail wheel. I could even afford to have a spare tail wheel. Bolt that sucker on and be back in business.

I would think having the elevator in a neutral position when starting the take off roll would keep it out of the prop blast. Then raise the tail once the elevator is effective. At slow rolling speeds the tail wheel should not take too much of a beating. Well unless your rolling over "baby heads".

Im curious on the thought of trimming full nose down to raise the tail. I would think if you have a hard time pushing the yoke forward at slow speeds, how are you going to pull back at flying speed.

One of the things I love about flying, there are lots of ways to pilot an aircraft. And of course we all have an opinion.

My opinion about the technique in question is that there is value in knowing how to do it and when to do it but it may not be beneficial to over utilize it for many of the reasons stated above. It's kind of like some pilots views on practicing (or doing) power off landings. Those that adamantly oppose them have their reasons but when I actually needed the technique for real it was a non-issue because I knew what to expect. I had practiced it...a lot!

CW

clippwagon wrote:My opinion about the technique in question is that there is value in knowing how to do it and when to do it but it may not be beneficial to over utilize it for many of the reasons stated above. It's kind of like some pilots views on practicing (or doing) power off landings. Those that adamantly oppose them have their reasons but when I actually needed the technique for real it was a non-issue because I knew what to expect. I had practiced it...a lot!

CW

Excellent post.

Here's an honest question, does anyone know a formula or rule of thumb , Heck even an idea of how to determine when a prop is actually most effectively working.

I don't really know how to communicate what I'm getting at, so I'll give an example;

In my work plane, with a big load on I can hold the brakes (on the clean concrete pad) and run the power up to max allowable static prior to take off. Then on the very next identical load I can just roll the power in kindly. No brake holding, no big noise theatrics....The difference in takeoff is undetectable. The same can not be said for noise, fuel burn, or prop wear.
I am guessing this is because the prop that has been ran that high up needs as much room/ time to get a bite as the prop that is turning slow. Any thoughts?

In the PAST I would taxi around with my tail up all the time for the practice. Bet I have over a 100 hours with my tail up in the air taxing around at a very slow speeds. Slower you go the more challenging it is. I would even set up cones to do this until one day... the pretty little bird looked more like a wind sock as it stood on her nose...

There is no need to do this. As Rob and others have mentioned, get your tail in the air as soon as possible / until you have elevator effectiveness...

AKT

Heck even an idea of how to determine when a prop is actually most effectively working.

IGNFI
But, I suspect that efficiency would vary at any RPM, static vs. moving because of the amount the air is disturbed. That being said, there no doubt is a sweet spot, but will probly change as you start moving and accelerating.

I have read(so it must be true ) Not a big gain by holding the brakes and powering up(which again doesn't seem like a good idea in the dirt, can we all agree on that? vs add power once you start rolling, in the 100 series Cessna planes..

I suspect there are also different effectivenesses out there, climb, speed, fuel economy etc . I know when I tried the MT prop I could notice quite a difference in climb by rolling the RPM back and forth.

Similar for flaps(here we go). Not much drag by having 10-20* of flaps on when you start your roll, up to 20 mph or so, and if they are doing anything, they are probly helping to get the tail up w/o using so much elevator(or brakes )

Gary

In the PAST I would taxi around with my tail up all the time for the practice. Bet I have over a 100 hours with my tail up in the air taxing around at a very slow speeds. Slower you go the more challenging it is. I would even set up cones to do this until one day... the pretty little bird looked more like a wind sock as it stood on her nose...

There is no need to do this. As Rob and others have mentioned, get your tail in the air as soon as possible / until you have elevator effectiveness...

I agree.

I was doing this for practice, too. Also doing wheel landings and coming to a complete stop before putting the tail down. It's a lot of fun, takes finesse, but risky. I had to reline my brakes (dual caliper Matcos) after <50 hours, I'm not doing those shenanigans anymore...

Zzz wrote:The beauty of the tailwheel design for bush flying is that it allows you to keep the propeller higher up out of rocks and debris when you mash the power from a standstill. Should you mash the power in rocks or gravel? That's debatable, but the tailwheel design has the advantage of keeping that prop "cone of suck" a little higher up.

During pre-flight testing, I had to do a full power run-up, tied to a truck. The only area available at that moment (long story) was paved and had a *little* loose gravel here and there. I had the prop over a concrete pad (swept clean) and thought I would be 'ok'. The prop sucked a handful of stones the size of peas (much smaller than a baby's head ) up from several feet away, and one hit the root of the prop where it enters the spinner!!! Luckily damage was only to the *thick* paint . In that case, the tail-low attitude did little to help at full power, I imagine results with a trike would be worse still.

Props are expensive as noted. Then as an A&P I feel you should wear it out quickly, kids are done with college and now all the spare money goes towards toys, god knows I need toys. The rule of thumb I always taught in Africa was get to a walking pace then full power. It saved tens of thousands of dollars on props. We also took old oil from changes with use to pour over the spots we ran up on the end of the runway, this along with sweeping the area with a broom, worked well. Yes I know, not very environmentally sacred. Then again, the mortars and artillery shells seem to have a greater environmental impact. Beside the minister of the environment and singing birds in Somalia seemed to be really busy on other stuff.

I try to get my tail wheel up quickly as well, but when I'm at above a jogging pace, unless the heads (rocks) are as big as Putin's Head

Scale of rocks: pin head, government worker head, baby head, typical head, hydrocephalic head, rock star head, Vladimir Putin's head

dogpilot wrote:Props are expensive as noted. Then as an A&P I feel you should wear it out quickly, kids are done with college and now all the spare money goes towards toys, god knows I need toys. The rule of thumb I always taught in Africa was get to a walking pace then full power. It saved tens of thousands of dollars on props. We also took old oil from changes with use to pour over the spots we ran up on the end of the runway, this along with sweeping the area with a broom, worked well. Yes I know, not very environmentally sacred. Then again, the mortars and artillery shells seem to have a greater environmental impact. Beside the minister of the environment and singing birds in Somalia seemed to be really busy on other stuff.

I try to get my tail wheel up quickly as well, but when I'm at above a jogging pace, unless the heads (rocks) are as big as Putin's Head

Scale of rocks: pin head, government worker head, baby head, typical head, hydrocephalic head, rock star head, Vladimir Putin's head

Careful with the belittling of folks hat size now. I recall you getting all up and hard over the Asian pilot post.