I took my first taildragger lesson today, and sure did get a new perspective on all aspects of flight, not just landing and takeoff. It was in a Citabria 7KCAB with an instructor that may have flown with Lindbergh, but still an awesome guy!

Previously in my flying I had always been taught to keep the aileron and rudder connected, left aileron, left rudder (except slips) but I learned that is not always the case. Perhaps it is because it is an aerobatic plane but after initiating the turn I had to be cross controlled with outward aileron and inward rudder, relative to the turn. Presumable to counteract the over-banking tendency. Sure did take some getting used to.

There was a new crosswind landing technique too. Rather than the typical rudder to line up the nose and dropping a wing to prevent side movement, In the flare I was taught to just do an uncoordinated turn, no rudder, and drop the upwind wing which for a few seconds swung the nose outward and lined it up with the runway.

At the beginning of the lesson when he said "Ah so you're ready to fly for real" I passed it off as a joke, but now I know it certainly was not!

I only have a bout 30 minutes in a KCAB, but the GCBC and GCAAs I've flown didn't need cross control to stay in the turn. Is it possible you left too much rudder in during the turn. I think for the most part, you make coordinated rudder/aileron to initate the turn, then back it out while you are in the turn. It could be a bit of an illusion, too. Most of the "normal" modern nosedragger planes have no adverse yaw so required very little rudder coordination - so I agree with you it was an eye opener.

Congrats on the move to tailwheel. I just did it myself not long ago and am excited about improving my skills.

Well the rudder in the turn, while backed out mostly, keeps the tail inline with the fuselage. The aileron was more to prevent over-banking tendency which rarely occurs in trainers but seems to be more prevalent in aerobatic planes... So I was told.

Hey Av8or that's awesome! I also did my first TW training today in a 7ECA and can absolutely identify with the mind blowing properties of this first step.

The lack of flaps on the Citabria requiring a continuous slip beginning at the downwind/base turn kinda threw me for a loop.

Its funny some of the similarities between the old instructors, at the beginning of my lesson I was told "you know how to drive an airplane, now I'm gonna teach you how to fly"

Congrats! Have fun
SD

Stop doing loops on the downwind to base turn. You are going to scare someone !!!

On my 7GCBC, the only time I need to cross my controls in a then is if I'm banking 80 degrees or more and want to keep the nose level. I agree that it may be a bit of an illusion, as it feels like you are using opposite aileron, but you should still be coordinated. Least that's how mine feels. Same plane as a kcab just doesn't have inverted fuel/ oil, and mine has flaps and a foot more wing.
Congrats on the tailwheel though! It is a huge eye opener, and way more fun. Enjoy learning. I know I still am enjoying learning more every flight.

David

I'm flying a Champ now and it has crazy adverse yaw, you have to hold a lot of outside aileron in a turn to keep it centered. I have a few hundred hours in a 7KCAB as well and it was pretty much the same as far as I remember although it's something you just get used to and don't think much about after awhile. I also have about a hundred hours in a 7GCBC and I recall it felt a bit different, probably because of the longer wing but looking at the TCDS the aileron deflections for GCBC and KCAB are the same (27.5U/19D). For the EC Champ it's one degree more up and one degree less down (28.5U/18D) which you'd think would cause less adverse yaw but then it's a much lighter airframe. Plus it's old as dirt and has been wrecked half a dozen times so there could be any number of contributing factors involved. I also flew an Aurora, which I think is an ECA, but it had spades and felt completely different.

Regardless, compared to everything else I've ever flown, the Citabrias all have more adverse yaw, just part of the design I guess. It doesn't make them bad flying airplanes but you do need to put the stick in the right spot.

Next time you are flying a plane that you have to cross control in a turn, add in some oppsite rudder and watch how it will pick up the low wing.

It is the old thing about picking up a low wing, with the rudder, not aileron.

Av8or2Skier wrote:I took my first taildragger lesson today, and sure did get a new perspective on all aspects of flight, not just landing and takeoff. It was in a Citabria 7KCAB with an instructor that may have flown with Lindbergh, but still an awesome guy!

I think this is the classic enlightenment that occurs for those of us who learned in trikes. I learned skills when transitioning to tailwheel flying that had previously been completely glossed over in my primary training. Instructor can make all the difference.

Ask your instructor to describe rudder and aileron position during a moose stall.

Kick in the pants isn't it. Have fun and enjoy the experience.

benflyn wrote:Next time you are flying a plane that you have to cross control in a turn, add in some oppsite rudder and watch how it will pick up the low wing.

Yup! This is exactly what I do in the Porter, mainly in shallow turns. I suspect different aircraft perform differently though. It's been a while since I flew a Cub but I don't recall it needing opposite rudder in turns.

Crosswinds are a little more challenging in a tailwheel aircraft. I tend to crab all the way down and straighten it up in the flare using rudder and into wind aileron whilst touching down on the into wind wheel and tailwheel first. Of course different aircraft require different techniques. Wheeler landings are a no no with the Porter, although I know one ag pilot who always flies it that way.

I don't know how to post a photograph of the consequences, but inside rudder and outside aileron during a turn is a deadly scenario. It leads to a moose stall, in which the low wing stalls first and tucks under, with the plane going semi inverted as the nose drops. At low altitudes, it is almost always fatal. Be careful with that inside rudder. Steep, skidding turns are not a good thing.

JimC wrote:inside rudder and outside aileron during a turn

I once had an instructor tell me (in my maule) that "this is not allowed....don't do it!", but he didn't elaborate on the resulting stall quite like you did. Now I more clearly understand why "this is not allowed....don't do it!"

Thanks!

I'm thinking that maybe there's just a tad too much rudder being held after the turn has been initiated, if opposite aileron seems necessary. I took my aerobatic training in a 3 different Decathlons and added a few hours a few years ago in a Citabria--and I don't recall any need to use opposite aileron, just a little more rudder to initiate the turn to counteract adverse yaw, but otherwise they all flew like airplanes. What you're doing really describes a skidding turn, and skidding turns at low altitude can easily lead to the classic base-to-final stall/spin crash.

There are a number of variations of crosswind landings, but the whole idea is to have the longitudinal axis of the airplane lined up with the runway without any side movement at touchdown. Whether you choose to slip all the way to the landing or crab and transition to a slip at the last minute (sometimes called "kicking out the crab") is more a matter of technique. For myself, whatever I fly, I prefer to crab until I begin the flare, when I transition to a slip. It's a very smooth maneuver if the wind is constant; it can be pretty whacko if the wind is gusty and changes direction a lot. Crabbing is a lot more comfortable for passengers than slipping all the way down final.

Cary

Cary wrote: I don't recall any need to use opposite aileron, just a little more rudder to initiate the turn to counteract adverse yaw, but otherwise they all flew like airplanes. What you're doing really describes a skidding turn, and skidding turns at low altitude can easily lead to the classic base-to-final stall/spin crash.

Cary

I got some more clarification on this and the ball IS centered at all times. What it actually is is using the adverse yaw of the plane to actually initiate and bring the turn around faster... but like I said the ball is absolutely centered. It is barely enough outer aileron to just feel it against the stick and it really does quicken the turn up.

There are two things that control the orientation of the ball. Rudder is one but Aileron will also move it, it is important to use them in conjunction to center the ball.

Crossed controlled and uncoordinated are two different things.

Av8or2Skier wrote:

Cary wrote: I don't recall any need to use opposite aileron, just a little more rudder to initiate the turn to counteract adverse yaw, but otherwise they all flew like airplanes. What you're doing really describes a skidding turn, and skidding turns at low altitude can easily lead to the classic base-to-final stall/spin crash.

Cary

I got some more clarification on this and the ball IS centered at all times. What it actually is is using the adverse yaw of the plane to actually initiate and bring the turn around faster... but like I said the ball is absolutely centered. It is barely enough outer aileron to just feel it against the stick and it really does quicken the turn up.

There are two things that control the orientation of the ball. Rudder is one but Aileron will also move it, it is important to use them in conjunction to center the ball.

Crossed controlled and uncoordinated are two different things.

You might want to read up some on this stuff....lots of good learning resources on the Internet.

Adverse yaw acts ADVERSE to the direction of the turn, caused by the down going aileron creating additional lift, and lift causes induced drag....waaaay out there on the wingtip. The rudder we apply in a turn is aimed specifically at canceling adverse yaw, NOT turn the airplane.

In other words, by definition, adverse yaw acts OPPOSITE the direction you WANT to go, it does NOT "initiate and bring the turn around faster".

That kind of thinking can get you hurt.

MTV

mtv wrote:You might want to read up some on this stuff....lots of good learning resources on the Internet.

Adverse yaw acts ADVERSE to the direction of the turn, caused by the down going aileron creating additional lift, and lift causes induced drag....waaaay out there on the wingtip. The rudder we apply in a turn is aimed specifically at canceling adverse yaw, NOT turn the airplane.

In other words, by definition, adverse yaw acts OPPOSITE the direction you WANT to go, it does NOT "initiate and bring the turn around faster".

That kind of thinking can get you hurt.

MTV

I'm not sure you are picturing what I'm saying. While established in the turn, typically the ailerons are neutral. Say i'm established in a left turn, if I have right aileron, but not enough to lessen the bank angle the adverse yaw will cause the plane to go left... again the ball is in the middle. Right aileron, (in this scenario) causes the adverse yaw to go left.

Correction... Rudder is NOT aimed at specifically cancelling adverse yaw... the Rudder is to keep the tail in the same flight line as the nose.

I quote from a CFI:
"As for the "cross control" issue, this has been discussed before. It's known as adverse yaw and the Citabria has a bunch of it. The outside aileron moves down and in so doing creates a greater amount of drag than the inside aileron which moves up. This increased drag causes the airplane to want to turn the opposite direction so, once established in the bank you put in a touch of opposite aileron which creates the excess drag on the inside where it aids the turn. "

You need a different CFI.

MTV

mtv wrote:You need a different CFI.

MTV

Not to be offensive, I don't doubt your experience but, I think you have a "my way or the highway" attitude which is not always correct. I would like to hear from someone else on the board.