MTV is right. You are not correctly describing adverse yaw. Read up on moose stalls. What's saving you is that you're not turning very steep so your load factor is still fairly low. Take the plane up to altitude and do a few moose stalls. They are educational, and quite a ride.

I think you guys are talking about two entirely different things. Holding a touch of outside aileron in a normal turn in a Citabria to address adverse yaw has nothing to do with a "moose stall" which is a case where attention is diverted to an object on the ground over which you are circling. In the first instance, regardless of the physical position of the stick you are in a perfectly coordinated turn with the ball centered. In the second instance you end up in a seriously uncoordinated condition.

If you disagree then show me how to get into a moose stall and subsequent spin from a perfectly coordinated turn with the ball centered.

I don't see how opposite aileron makes you turn faster... again, I speak from experience in my citabria, but if I'm doing say a 60* bank, with my ball in the center, I do not require any opposite aileron. And if I want the plane to come around faster I pull back on the stick a bit more. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. However, in a shallow turn, like has been mentioned, the load factors are less.

Id have to say I'm with Mike on this one. The rudder is to keep the tail in the same flight path of the nose, however, you must use the rudder to overcome the adverse yaw, otherwise the plane will keep turning in the opposite direction. Which makes the direct use of the rudder to overcome the adverse yaw, making the tail stay in line with the desired flight path of the nose (if thats not clear as mud).

I will have to try this when I get my plane back from annual, at elevation. But I can see it not going well.

But again, I'm far from an expert and am open to being trained properly...

*edited do to miss reading on the landing portion. You DO wantt to lower the upwind wing.

mtv wrote:In other words, by definition, adverse yaw acts OPPOSITE the direction you WANT to go, it does NOT "initiate and bring the turn around faster".

That kind of thinking can get you hurt.

MTV

But since he was talking about slight OUTSIDE aileron in the turn that OPPOSITE effect would be in the direction of the turn. I understand what he's talking about, these aren't Sean Tucker moves here, it's a barely perceptible amount of opposite aileron input and I think it's just the fact that the instructor was explaining this stuff to him that he even noticed he was doing it.

It's certainly not "moose stall" territory.

I have never, and would never suggest any of this has anything to do with a "moose stall".

Lots of good reading out there on aerodynamics.

MTV

Av8or, I have never flown a Citabria but " over banking tendency" is something common in gliders with their long wings. In an established turn with ailerons neutral the outside wing will be traveling faster than the inside wing. The faster traveling wing will be producing more lift and more induced drag so opposite aileron to maintain bank angle and rudder to counteract drag are required.

However I don't think I have ever really noticed those tendencies in my Tcraft.

This aerodynamic condition exists in all the airplanes I've flown, though it is more pronounced in the Citabria it's still a subtle input. In calm air aileron deflection causes a roll movement, when the desired bank angle is obtained the ailerons are neutralized. As observed, the outside wing is travelling faster than the inside wing and therefore producing more lift which would, if not compensated for, continue to produce a roll movement. This effect is more pronounced in shallow banked turns than in steep turns because in a very steep turn the speed difference between inner and outer wing is less. Also, in the steeper turn the elevator plays an increasing role in maintaining the right track.

If this situation did not exist then it should be possible to enter a 30 degree banked turn, neutralize the ailerons and remove your hand from the stick or yoke using pitch trim to adjust the elevator input and fly around in circles all day hands off.

I haven't flown any airplane that will do that.

MTV sez: "You need a different CFI." I agree. Keep following that one's advice will likely kill you. Skidding turns at pattern speeds are dangerous, and if the stall/spin occurs in the pattern, the likelihood of being able to recover is almost nil.
Silvaire sez: "If this situation did not exist then it should be possible to enter a 30 degree banked turn, neutralize the ailerons and remove your hand from the stick or yoke using pitch trim to adjust the elevator input and fly around in circles all day hands off." Properly rigged, that's exactly what it should do. Generally speaking, over-banking doesn't occur in that shallow a bank, but is more likely to occur after the bank exceeds 45 degrees.

Cary

Cary wrote:MTV sez: "You need a different CFI." I agree. Keep following that one's advice will likely kill you. Skidding turns at pattern speeds are dangerous, and if the stall/spin occurs in the pattern, the likelihood of being able to recover is almost nil.

Cary

*sigh* how is it that if the ball is in the middle I am skidding? Look I'm not flying the pattern inverted. It is a hair of opposite aileron. All I wanted to do was share my tail wheel experience but instead I'm being told I'm going to die because I was taught something slightly different than everyone else. I just wanted to share my enthusiasm but nevermind .

I'm with you Av8or, this going nowhere.

Congrats on the tailwheel transition!

I did mine in a Decathlon. Although my original primary instructor in the C150 I learned in was a tailwheel guy and so taught me how to use my feet and my butt. He also used to frustrate me at the time by telling me that on the controls I had to do "whatever it takes". No hard rules on left rudder must accompany left aileron, sounds like you've discovered that. The rule is ball centered (seat of the pants can tell you that as well) and it sounds like you are doing fine on that. You may need some opposite or neutral aileron at times, depending on airplane, wind gust, bank angle, etc. if the ball stays centered (and the seat of your pants tells you the same) and airspeed isn't too low then it's all good.

So I later learned that the control inputs are in fact "whatever it takes". Just takes time. When you are walking, or even standing, you are flexing various muscles front back and sideways and you aren't even aware of which muscles are active.

Av8or, your enthusiasm is appreciated and welcome - don't stop. You aren't going to die and you don't need a new CFI. You are however talking about very subtle nuances - and take everybody's comments with a grain of salt. Just be aware that every pilot, every plane, every instructor, and every situation is different however slight or great. Be prepared to process all this information and apply it incrementally as you move to each new experience. I've flown 3 other local citabrias and don't recall really needing outside aileron to hold bank or speed up a turn - but Malehams may be different or more pronounced due to rigging. Slipping turns fine, skidding turns bad. I also haven't flown with Maleham - but am certain he's a fine instructor.

The only caution I would add is to be careful around here - especially at BDU - we often get shear conditions and gusting winds from quickly changing directions. Be very aware that you could be slipping 1 minute and skidding the next - add some extra margin of airspeed and less aggressive manuvers when the conditions warrant it. Often at BDU the socks will be arguing with each other from opposite ends of the field.

See you 'round the patch.

Av8or2Skier wrote:I just wanted to share my enthusiasm

Keep pluggin' away, and ignore us long of tooth old farts. I got a year or two flyin' now, and close to a hunnert hours if I could actually find my logbook, and I don't have a clue what those guys were talking about with that slip and skid shit. Push and pull till it looks right (with the ball centered)

Gump

A1Skinner wrote:I don't see how opposite aileron makes you turn faster... again, I speak from experience in my citabria, but if I'm doing say a 60* bank, with my ball in the center, I do not require any opposite aileron....

You have to understand A1 that, once you exceed 45 degrees of bank, the elevator and rudder have started to swap functions with each other. Adverse yaw is associated with the rudder because it causes a yaw motion but the ailerons are only used to change the bank angle and that's when the adverse yaw occurs. In an established bank the ailerons are neutral so there is no adverse yaw, it's only during the initiation of a bank when the aileron is aggressively applied that it occurs.

The discussion here is that when in the turn the outside wing is creating more lift than the inside and so opposite aileron will induce the adverse yaw in the direction you are wanting to turn while simultaneously eliminating the excess lift on the outside wing. Look, you guys are all doing it whether you know it or not, it's subtle in a Cessna but more obvious in a Cub or a Champ.

If you learned to fly in a Cirrus then you have too many knobs, buttons digits and graphic symbols to deal with to ever notice it. Heck, Av8tor probably never would have noticed it if his instructor - who, by the way I think he mentioned was a local "legend" - hadn't brought it up but if you learned in a Cub or any other crude old classic you know that the stick and pedals just go to where they need to be at the time - even if that sounds totally wrong from a book sense.

The only caution I would add is to be careful around here - especially at BDU - we often get shear conditions and gusting winds from quickly changing directions. Be very aware that you could be slipping 1 minute and skidding the next - add some extra margin of airspeed and less aggressive manuvers when the conditions warrant it.



OK, I've resisted replying to this thread but I'll add my 2 cents. The reason that us "Old Salts" are strongly recommending that you not even entertain thoughts of cross control or skidding is that from your posts it appears that you are developing skills and habits. The advice you received above is something to consider. It is very easy to get away with bad habits when the aircraft is lightly loaded with a forward CG. On another day with a heavy load, aft CG and throw in turbulence with low vis, you could become a statistic. There has been many a Beaver driver that has made that mistake and ended up in the water turning final. Remember that you're posting on a "Bush flying" site and quite a few of the folks responding are extremely experienced high time bush pilots that know what it takes to stay alive in a very unforgiving environment. They offer their strong words of wisdom because they have seen too many accidents repeated from this kind of thing.

Av8or

From time to time I have to remind myself that it is REALLY hard to read emotion in typed words and can sometimes is misinterpreted. I don't think anyone here is mean spirited ...... but can be very "direct" in their comments.
There is much wisdom in the words of the 'Old Salty Dogs" but no ones perfect....learn something new everyday and go fly.

It's not good to have too thin a skin, when it comes to reading posts from old-timers. Not that any of us are experts, but many of us have been around the patch too many times to count, have instructed (and remember that the definition of instructing includes surviving the students' continuous attempts to kill us), and there are some here (not including me) who have such incredibly honed skills that they can make airplanes do what their designers never expected. In many contexts, having a piloting certificate of any kind remains a license to learn, for all of us. The day we stop learning is probably the day we should stop flying.

Cary

Cary wrote: The day we stop learning is probably the day we should stop flying.

Cary

And I am learning... from a CFI that is regarded as a legend. He is in his 70's and has been flying for over half a century. He used to be on a highly regarded aerobatic flight team and was a salesman for Aviat, selling Huskies and Pitts. I'm going to trust his teaching method over a bunch of people on the internet that seem to not even understand... or choose to not understand a word I say.

Av8or2Skier wrote:

Cary wrote: The day we stop learning is probably the day we should stop flying.

Cary

And I am learning... from a CFI that is regarded as a legend. He is in his 70's and has been flying for over half a century. He used to be on a highly regarded aerobatic flight team and was a salesman for Aviat, selling Huskies and Pitts. I'm going to trust his teaching method over a bunch of people on the internet that seem to not even understand... or choose to not understand a word I say.

Keep flying you're doing fine

Cary wrote:It's not good to have too thin a skin, when it comes to reading posts from old-timers.

Av8or2Skier wrote: a bunch of people on the internet that seem to not even understand... or choose to not understand a word I say.

Av8or2Skier, try to se the "Elder Wisdom" in these guy's posts. Sometimes we talk of the same thing in different words/contexts & it gets a bit confusing(?) ... contrary(?) when it's not meant to be.