Backcountry Pilot • 26" Goodyear Blimp Tire Rubs on Brake Caliper...

26" Goodyear Blimp Tire Rubs on Brake Caliper...

Avionics, airplane covers, tires, handheld radios, GPS receivers, wireless Wx uplink...any product related to backcountry aircraft and flying.
Post a reply
49 posts • Page 2 of 3 • 1, 2, 3
Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:47 am

Re: 26" Goodyear Blimp Tire Rubs on Brake Caliper...

shortfielder wrote:Unless I missed something, sounds like you are using the wrong torque plate. Did you change it when you changed everything else. The correct one is P/N 075-0501
Gary

That is right, you need to change the torque plate too. I did when I swapped mine out.
I also got a spacer provided, in the upgrade kit from Grove, along with the plate and new wheel bolts etc etc. They do a great upgrade kit if you're homebuilt.
Battson offline
Knowledge Base Author
User avatar
Posts: 1810
Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 11:19 pm
Location: New Zealand
Aircraft: Bearhawk 4-place
IO-540 260hp
top
Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:40 am

Re: 26

Zzz wrote:...... Disregard the non-locking nut on the flange bolts. They are temporary. I know how people love to point that stuff out. 8-)


Spoil-sport!
hotrod180 offline
Supporter
User avatar
Posts: 10534
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:47 pm
Location: Port Townsend, WA
Cessna Skywagon -- accept no substitute!
top
Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:52 am

Re: 26" Goodyear Blimp Tire Rubs on Brake Caliper...

shortfielder wrote:Unless I missed something, sounds like you are using the wrong torque plate. Did you change it when you changed everything else. The correct one is P/N 075-0501 Gary


A friend of mine went through this when he had tire-rubbing issues with his 180 a few years ago. he found it was cheaper to sell his original Cleveland wheel & brake kit (#199-60?) and buy a new 199-62 kit, than to buy replacement tork plates spacers etc. Probably more true now with the good pricing on new ABW W&B kits.
Per the Airframes Alaska website:
Cleveland 199-62A kit (6 bolt wheels) @ $2127
ABW 199-62A kit @ $1795
Cleveland 199-62 kit (3 bolt wheels) @ $1683
ABW 199-62 kit @ $1665.
hotrod180 offline
Supporter
User avatar
Posts: 10534
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:47 pm
Location: Port Townsend, WA
Cessna Skywagon -- accept no substitute!
top
Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:59 am

Re: 26" Goodyear Blimp Tire Rubs on Brake Caliper...

hotrod180 wrote:
shortfielder wrote:Unless I missed something, sounds like you are using the wrong torque plate. Did you change it when you changed everything else. The correct one is P/N 075-0501 Gary


A friend of mine went through this when he had tire-rubbing issues with his 180 a few years ago. he found it was cheaper to sell his original Cleveland wheel & brake kit (#199-60?) and buy a new 199-62 kit, than to buy replacement tork plates spacers etc. Might still be true now with the good pricing on new ABW W&B kits, but then again AA has some pretty reasonable prices on tork plates etc..
Per the Airframes Alaska website:
Cleveland 199-62A kit (6 bolt wheels) @ $2127
ABW 199-62A kit @ $1795
Cleveland 199-62 kit (3 bolt wheels) @ $1683
ABW 199-62 kit @ $1665.


http://www.airframesalaska.com/ABI-PMA- ... =18&page=1
hotrod180 offline
Supporter
User avatar
Posts: 10534
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:47 pm
Location: Port Townsend, WA
Cessna Skywagon -- accept no substitute!
top
Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:46 pm

Re: 26" Goodyear Blimp Tire Rubs on Brake Caliper...

Well, I have more data. I reassembled the wheels with the original AN5-35A bolts, replacing the under-nut washer with a thin one. I found that I had 3/32" available before I ran out of thread engagement in the lock nut. I got the 3/32 by stacking one regular 960 washer and one thin washer between the disc and wheel. This made a difference, but still not enough of a difference, so I ordered some AN5-37A bolts to try. The only problem is that as others have mentioned, this starts to move the pins out of the torque plate holes. I compared the -60 and -62 part numbers and confirmed that the difference is in the torque plates and not in the pins. What is the minimum safe engagement for the pins in the torque plates? It seems like for a 2500-pound airplane these brakes are pretty well over-sized.
jaredyates offline
Knowledge Base Author
User avatar
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:40 am
Location: Hickory, NC
Aircraft: Bearhawk 4-Place
top
Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:31 am

Re: 26" Goodyear Blimp Tire Rubs on Brake Caliper...

You seem to be resisting getting the correct torque plates. When I bought my kit from Wup, it came with correct ones, and there were no issues after that. Brakes are pretty important. My feeling is that is no place to compromise. I know new ones are a little spendy, but stioll piece of mind. There are plenty of good used one around.
Gary
shortfielder offline
User avatar
Posts: 2350
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:14 pm
Location: Durango, Colorado
FindMeSpot URL: http://share.findmespot.com/shared/face ... D263l9HKFb
If you want to go up, pull back on the controls. If you want to go down, pull back farther.

My SPOT page
top
Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:07 am

Re: 26" Goodyear Blimp Tire Rubs on Brake Caliper...

shortfielder wrote:You seem to be resisting getting the correct torque plates. When I bought my kit from Wup, it came with correct ones, and there were no issues after that. Brakes are pretty important. My feeling is that is no place to compromise. I know new ones are a little spendy, but stioll piece of mind. There are plenty of good used one around.
Gary


Yes, you are right about my resistance. There's always an ideal option, but if my existing parts could be safe and reliable, then that means spending less, which means working less, which means more time for other fun stuff. It looks like with my current brake wear I'd be getting out so that half of my pins would be engaged, but as the linings wear further, that would get worse.

Here's what I gather about the part numbers for the torque plates, researching other threads here and Cleveland parts diagrams. The originals on my 199-60 kit are part of the 30-52 brake and part number 075-01500.
The 199-62 kit includes a brake disk that is about 1/4" deeper, and brake 30-52N, which seems to vary only in the torque plate, which is number 075-05401.

It looks like one of my favorite salvage places will sell me a pair of the 401s for under $200, so I'll go that route.

In the end, this position will be good. If it becomes advantageous in the future, I'll be able to swap back to the original configuration and still be able to fit a set of 600x6 tires into those large fiberglass parts that I'll not mention here by name.
jaredyates offline
Knowledge Base Author
User avatar
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:40 am
Location: Hickory, NC
Aircraft: Bearhawk 4-Place
top
Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:33 am

Re: 26" Goodyear Blimp Tire Rubs on Brake Caliper...

jaredyates wrote:fit a set of 600x6 tires into those large fiberglass parts that I'll not mention here by name.

Probly a wise choice :wink:

Did you check with Grove to see if they have shims and torque plates that will work? I don't know if their stuff is exactly the same as Cleveland but it wouldn't hurt to check.
whee offline
User avatar
Posts: 3386
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:59 pm
Location: SE Idaho
top
Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:53 am

Re: 26" Goodyear Blimp Tire Rubs on Brake Caliper...

I called Grove because I couldn't find anything on their website or catalog, and the lady on the phone wasn't sure if theirs would fit. I pressed and she said "we just don't sell anything that isn't going into our product because we don't know if it is going to fit or not." Fair enough, I'll not buy anything from them.

Has anyone ever seen the dimensions of a Cleveland wheel or brake disc published? I traced the disc on paper and measured the following:

Overall OD: 5.4375 (5-7/16)
Inner Diameter: 4.09375 (4-3/32)
Bolt Hole Diameter: 5/16 bolt
Bolt Circle Radius: 2.375 (2-3/8)

It would be nice if I could validate those before having my machinist friend make a few.
jaredyates offline
Knowledge Base Author
User avatar
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:40 am
Location: Hickory, NC
Aircraft: Bearhawk 4-Place
top
Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:14 am

Re: 26" Goodyear Blimp Tire Rubs on Brake Caliper...

Just another thought here...

Are you sure the torque plate is currently installed correctly?? If I recall correctly, when I installed the new brakes on my cessna, there was a bit of confusion about which way to install the torque plates. Due to the design, it was possible to install them backwards and it took a double and triple check to make sure I was doing it right.

The cessna gear leg (180 anyways) has two different size bolts holding the whole shebang together. Because of this, the torque plate mounting bolt holes are all sized for the bigger bolt (AN6), and a couple bushings were provided to take up the slack for the smaller bolts. This allowed for mounting the caliper forward of the axle, or aft of the axle.

So there is an offset to the torque plate guide pin bushings, and given the correct installation, the offset would be more toward the center of the plane. If they are backwards, you would have much less guide pin sitting in the bushings (caliper further away from torque plate).
Last edited by bart on Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bart offline
User avatar
Posts: 545
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:54 pm
Location: Fresno, CA
FindMeSpot URL: http://share.findmespot.com/shared/face ... 1ZTy9zAEWv
Aircraft: Cessna 180
top
Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:21 am

Re: 26" Goodyear Blimp Tire Rubs on Brake Caliper...

"It would be nice if I could validate those before having my machinist friend make a few."

Jared,
How about cutting the back out of an old brake disc? (Correct holes, correct aviation metal, etc.)

Turn OD if need clearance and face to get proper thickness.

Kind-of a "fitted" PMA part. Should some laying arround.

I have not tried this yet, though.

--Bill
c180bill offline
Supporter
User avatar
Posts: 124
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:50 pm
Location: Davis, CA
top
Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:47 am

Re: 26" Goodyear Blimp Tire Rubs on Brake Caliper...

bart wrote:Just another thought here...

Are you sure the torque plate is currently installed correctly?


It's funny you should mention it. Just the other evening as I was going to sleep I started to wonder if I could flip the torque plate around to accomplish the same goal, remembering that it was offset. Unfortunately, it is already offset away from the wheel. Good thinking though!

I remember reading on one of the piper message boards that someone had put spacers under the torque plate to bring it inboard. That's spacers upon spacers... (EDIT: This won't work, because the torque plate doesn't mount between the landing gear ring and the caliper- it mounts on the outboard side of the ring, so spacers would only make for less engagement.)

In my case, the new torque plates are already on the way, so I'll go that route.

c180bill wrote:How about cutting the back out of an old brake disc? (Correct holes, correct aviation metal, etc.)

Thanks for that idea Bill. The brake disks are steel, and I was thinking about making the spacer out of aluminum to save weight and ease fabrication. And if I go for 1/4" of spacing, that may take a few donor disks. Mine seem to only be about 1/16" thick in that section.

I had planned on just using washers, and may still initially. I was thinking about it from the stress perspective and having a hard time imagining how the loading could really be that different between washers and full-contact spacers. Then, I started thinking about the thermodynamics, and how having many more square inches of contact between the wheel half and the brake disk would probably help heat sink the disk a little.
jaredyates offline
Knowledge Base Author
User avatar
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:40 am
Location: Hickory, NC
Aircraft: Bearhawk 4-Place
top
Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:44 am

Re: 26" Goodyear Blimp Tire Rubs on Brake Caliper...

I found some disk spacers in the hangar today and remembered this thread. Here is a pic just for clarity.
Image
PAMR MX offline
User avatar
Posts: 469
Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 10:28 pm
Location: Merrill Field
top
Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:01 pm

Re: 26" Goodyear Blimp Tire Rubs on Brake Caliper...

whee wrote:
jaredyates wrote:fit a set of 600x6 tires into those large fiberglass parts that I'll not mention here by name.

Probly a wise choice :wink:

Did you check with Grove to see if they have shims and torque plates that will work? I don't know if their stuff is exactly the same as Cleveland but it wouldn't hurt to check.


I am pretty sure the Grove stuff is a carbon copy... I have compared the two before, and by eye there was no difference I could see. But you would want to call the shop and ask the man himself, he designed the parts and can tell you for sure, he is very helpful. I am sorry to have forgotten his name.

I would also caution about the consequences of brake failure. Even though the chances are remote, if it happens from overstress - then it's going to happen in circumstances when you are really straining the brakes (when you really NEED them) and will be a ground loop at best, a write-off at worst.

In case it helps, here is a photo of how mine looks, in terms of clearance.
Image
Battson offline
Knowledge Base Author
User avatar
Posts: 1810
Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 11:19 pm
Location: New Zealand
Aircraft: Bearhawk 4-place
IO-540 260hp
top
Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:32 am

Re: 26" Goodyear Blimp Tire Rubs on Brake Caliper...

Thanks guys. It turns out that locating used torque plates has been harder than I first realized. When the first set arrived, they turned out to be the 500s and not the 401s. The seller took them back and provided a refund. I called Wentworth and they said sure, we have them. I asked if they could send me a picture. The ones they sent a picture of don't look right at all. The guy there says that they came off of a 30-52N brake, but I can't see how. He doesn't seem to be too interested in trying to track down the right ones.
I just purchased another set that was listed on ebay with an old part number, but they looked pretty close to being the right parts. Then the seller wrote to say that she had actually already sold them, and just forgot to take down the listing.
I might reassess the option of selling what I have to start fresh, though for now I'm just flying with the 600x6 tires again.
jaredyates offline
Knowledge Base Author
User avatar
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:40 am
Location: Hickory, NC
Aircraft: Bearhawk 4-Place
top
Wed Sep 16, 2015 1:07 pm

Re: 26" Goodyear Blimp Tire Rubs on Brake Caliper...

Jared, don't persuade yourself to use just washers for spacers. That is not enough surface area and the bolts will eventually tear through the disc mounting ring.
maules.com offline
Posts: 561
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:35 pm
Location: west coast
top
Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:02 am

Re: 26" Goodyear Blimp Tire Rubs on Brake Caliper...

Thanks, I think I can make a set of spacers pretty easily. The torque plates have proven to be the bigger challenge.
jaredyates offline
Knowledge Base Author
User avatar
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:40 am
Location: Hickory, NC
Aircraft: Bearhawk 4-Place
top
Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:16 am

Re: 26" Goodyear Blimp Tire Rubs on Brake Caliper...

jaredyates wrote:Thanks, I think I can make a set of spacers pretty easily. The torque plates have proven to be the bigger challenge.


Get ahold of Airframes Alaska, they appear to sell both Cleveland and ABW brake kits & parts. If you have the p/n for the tork plate, or for the kit which has the tork plate you want, nthey should be able to fix you up. Might not be cheap though. You might also call Preferred Airparts, they have a lot of new old stock.

http://www.airframesalaska.com/category ... =30&page=1
hotrod180 offline
Supporter
User avatar
Posts: 10534
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:47 pm
Location: Port Townsend, WA
Cessna Skywagon -- accept no substitute!
top
Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:30 pm

Re: 26" Goodyear Blimp Tire Rubs on Brake Caliper...

Someday, possibly years from now, some poor sod is going to have this post show up in their search results:

If you are looking for this type of solution (yes, ABW does make this kit):

Image

...note that even though it is for a 3-bolt pattern, it will not fit on a Cleveland 40-59A wheel. ABW doesn't claim they will btw -- I was simply hopeful. Odd trivia, I know, but it is indeed the truth.

These will:

Image

I have 4 left over after having a lot of 6 CNC water cut from my CAD drawings. I am also happy to send the CAD file so your favorite machinist could turn you a pair for your favorite experimental airplane.
motosix offline
User avatar
Posts: 238
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:37 pm
Location: Denver
FindMeSpot URL: http://tinyurl.com/redcubby
top
Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:06 am

Re: 26" Goodyear Blimp Tire Rubs on Brake Caliper...

I machined a set of spacers, but unless there is a paperwork issue, it is cheaper to buy a pair of deeper brake discs from Rapco than it is to buy the spacer kit at $179 plus shipping. I'm still hung up on torque plates, being that the fourth set that I thought would work happen to be McCauley parts and are just slightly mismatched in the caliper pin alignment. The next step is to buy the torque plates from AA but so far I haven't felt a $400 plus shipping need for big tires.
jaredyates offline
Knowledge Base Author
User avatar
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:40 am
Location: Hickory, NC
Aircraft: Bearhawk 4-Place
top

DISPLAY OPTIONS

PreviousNext
Post a reply
49 posts • Page 2 of 3 • 1, 2, 3
Return to Products, Gear, and Technology

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

Latest Features

Latest Knowledge Base