Hey guys, if you've followed my other thread about the intermittent loss of power you know that I've run into an unexpected overhaul. Essentially, a newly overhauled cylinder my last mechanic installed had already begun to fail and during the process of troubleshooting we also found that my last mechanic dismissed high iron content oil samples that were a result of a failing camshaft. I've learned a lot from this process, it's been painfully expensive but I now know better how to protect myself from overly-minimalistic maintenance going forward.

So, that being said:

My new mechanic does a lot of business with Lycon because he works quite a bit with the smaller Lycomings. We got bids from a few different engine shops and either because of his relationship with them or maybe just because this is typical, Lycon came up with the most favorable pricing on a basic overhaul and options.

Because this overhaul is unexpected, and because I don't intend to keep this plane forever (I have no choice but to get into a 206 within the next couple of years because of our growing family), I can't justify the cost of the -50 upgrade and a prop. That being said, I wanted to ask the group about Lycon and if their favorable pricing doesn't reflect on quality of work. I have heard second and third hand that they can be slow, but otherwise that they do excellent work.

The porting work is a pretty small upcharge, and if it helps at all with mixture distribution and power it seems like a no-brainer.

So, as it stands my intent is to go with Lycon and add the porting. What are your thoughts? Anything else I should consider during the process? We will be overhauling the engine mount and prop governer at the same time. I want to make sure I don't look back a few months from now and regret missing something.

Lycon has had a good rep, IMHO they are one of the name brand engine shops.
Unfortunately I've heard some recent gripes about their customer service.
Might be a case of them resting on their laurels, or maybe just isolated incidents?

I'm curious what kind of time frame they gave you for the overhaul.
I've heard that pretty much all the engine shop in-and-out times are a lot longer than normal these days--
maybe due to covid downsizing at the shops themselves or at their suppliers & vendors?

Is the “porting” option approved? Legal? That could be an issue especially if selling down the road. What is Lyon replacing and what are they repairing? New or overhauled cylinders? Cam? There can be a big difference between what shops repair or replace. Is the carb getting overhauled? Mags? Engine mount? Now would be a great time to replace the engine mount rubbers. Lots of things to consider to get an apples to apples comparison. My buddy had his Lycoming 320 overhauled by Penn Yann last year, new everything and at a very competing price, he was very happy.

Kurt

I have a couple of friends who used Lycon. One of them recently did the full overhaul on his Lycoming, with flow porting. They did a great job, but took a long time and it was not easy for them to get status updates or return shipping details.

The other sent his cylinders to them for the flow porting and were both very happy with the results. They both have a noticeable increase in HP.

One other note, Lycon has the setup to flow test and adjust the carburetor to make sure it is within spec with the engine, i.e. not too rich or too lean, when the mixture is set to full rich. I don't know if it is as big a deal on an o-470, but it sure helped out on the Lycoming.

I know you said the -50 is out since you are planning on selling but one other thought to ponder is the resale value. I know Vref can be hit or miss, but when I checked the value of my 182M with a stock overhaul vs a Pponk, it was almost $30k difference. If your prop is useable on the Pponk, the cost difference between the two may only be 10k or so

I dont think the standard Pponk is much different than a normal overhaul. Could be wrong. Zephyr in FL originally quoted me 29k I think it was.

Even going back a bit further, Is it going to actually be a couple years until you sell and buy a 206? Or possibly sooner? Very hard sell to recoupe your money for an overhaul. No one really wants a third party no warranty low hr overhaul to begin with, and even less want to pay a premium for it. Maybe possibly look at doing the upgrade now and selling the 182 needing an engine? Might make more financial sense with how hot the market is now for 182's. Most that want a 182 to keep it and faced with an overhaul will P-ponk it. Might be something to really consider before going any further.

Thanks for the feedback guys,

I'll be moving forward with Lycon, they'll be providing a turnaround estimate once they get my deposit and I'll share that with you.

I appreciate the concern about the economics of the matter, I have enough equity even at sane valuations to be in good shape. But, I leave my economic concerns for other matters... if I tried to make aviation make sense financially I'd lose my mind. And yes, the delta between -50 and standard overhaul is widening, the new owner of the STC has increased prices quite a bit, and even other engine shops are increasing prices. The cost difference based on actual quotes was $25k more for the total cost of -50 and prop (two blade MT) or a 62% increase over what I'm facing with a typical overhaul and keeping my existing prop. If the prop didn't need to be replaced it could be a different story.

I worked with lawson aviation out of MI. P-ponk motor was 33.5k. new prop was 12k. There is always misc extra stuff that comes up, total was close to 50k done. The plane is a beast though.

one more vote to p-ponk

[deleted]

I went through this about 2 years ago and I can second that the gap gets a lot bigger than it appears to be once you get practical quotes and consider upgrades etc.

Years ago it may have been "28k 470, 32k pponk! no brainer"

But, after doing weeks/months of research I would say the gap is more like 32k 470, 43k pponk, budgeting for camshaft, plus propeller, STC, etc.

Also going to pponk has cost me more in other ways:
- Induction Leaks
- Troubleshooting Crossover tube
- OH carburetor well before expected date due to: [Induction leaks]
- 8.5 cylinders
- Baffle labor for heat transfer
- Bigger prop, more forward CG, more messing around with W/B
- You'll probably have some Acorn Welding and maybe Seaplanes West bills as well


The few times I have been heavy, it's been great to have the pponk, and the climb is nice, and it's a lot quieter than the 2 seaplane prop I used to run.

The downsides have been cannot use e0 mogas [tough for a straight floats seaplane to make this trade], and generally more maintenance.

nickelb wrote:Also going to pponk has cost me more in other ways:
- Induction Leaks
- Troubleshooting Crossover tube
- OH carburetor well before expected date due to: [Induction leaks]

The downsides have been ...... generally more maintenance.

I'm just curious why you think a P-Ponk is worse than a stock O-470 on the above mentioned items?

Ross

Was just speaking from my [admittedly limited] personal experience, I encountered a lot less issues with the 470-R than the 470-50 [8.5:1].

nickelb wrote:Was just speaking from my [admittedly limited] personal experience, I encountered a lot less issues with the 470-R than the 470-50 [8.5:1].

It’s the identical induction system so there are no more or less chances of leaks than with the 470-R.

Chris


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I can confirm that Lycon is very slow and uncommunicative.

My engine has been there for 6 months, and I was told the engine would be shipped a month ago. My mechanic says he keeps getting the runaround.

I'm very frustrated and disappointed. I'm not sure if I'll use them again, but I seem to hear gripes about most engine shops so it's tough to get a good bearing on these sorts of things.

I feel like the GA industry overall has a lack of good business acumen and customer service.

That sucks. I think shops are having supply issues; got a buddy getting a 470 overhauled that was supposed to be done in September but the shop can’t get parts. Not sure that’s Lycon’s issue though. They’re known for being slow, uncommunicative and giving folks the runaround even before any supply issues.

5 years ago, when I got my -50, Lawson’s PPonk was less than a Continental 470 reman, to the same limits. The prop was sourced by Lawson’s, and they sold my existing prop. Cost me $1200 for the low time, grease filled 337’d field approval prop/spinner. Turn around was 2 months. Zero problems with the engine. If you don’t want the -50, you might see what Lawson’s wants for a straight overhaul. I’d certainly trust them to do any engine work.

Two overhauls recently and I reached out to Lycon for both aircraft. They had pretty high wait times on their estimates so we inquired as to why and (if I understood them correctly) they outsource quite a bit of the overhaul machining to places like OneStop which increases the time it takes to go through Lycon. I ended up using OneStop for both overhauls one of which was an O-470S. My experience with Lycon's customer service was pretty excellent even though we didn't use them this time.

Just one guy's expereince

jrc111 wrote:5 years ago, when I got my -50, Lawson’s PPonk was less than a Continental 470 reman, to the same limits. The prop was sourced by Lawson’s, and they sold my existing prop. Cost me $1200 for the low time, grease filled 337’d field approval prop/spinner. Turn around was 2 months. Zero problems with the engine. If you don’t want the -50, you might see what Lawson’s wants for a straight overhaul. I’d certainly trust them to do any engine work.

I have had two big Continentals from Lawson. The second is a -50. Rock solid engines in both cases.

I know of others who have also had very favorable experiences with Lawson.

Matt and Dustin are a wealth of good information.