mtv wrote:Speedemon,

Interesting approach: Come on a public forum asking for feedback on a "project airplane. Get lots of responses, then blow them off because you've obviously already made up your mind.

Look, if you have the $$$ to quickly consider an IO 550 and MT prop let alone the potential issues this thing presents, by all means go for it.

Let us know how the refurb goes.

MTV

I did a pre buy on a 185 like that.
You can't get attached to the airplane before you have someone look it over. Good way to loose a bunch of money. I have a friend like that. Bought a $34,000 pa-11 flew it for a year, first annual the wings came off and the fuselage is getting recovered. Lots of rotted tubes.


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mtv wrote:Speedemon,

Interesting approach: Come on a public forum asking for feedback on a "project airplane. Get lots of responses, then blow them off because you've obviously already made up your mind.

Look, if you have the $$$ to quickly consider an IO 550 and MT prop let alone the potential issues this thing presents, by all means go for it.

Let us know how the refurb goes.

MTV

The potential seller has yet to even give me a price. For right now the forums are an excellent place to weigh the potential issues and Pros vs Cons involved as well. At this point, negotiations haven't even started and I'm just trying to represent the planes condition and the situation to the best of my ability so I don't potentially get burnt or pay too much for a project if I can even buy it. In my previous post I threw out the prospective of going to a 550 and new propeller because it would guarantee I knew exactly what I had at the end of the day. In buying anything used, I've always followed the school of thought that its best to do as much research as possible and talk to as many people as possible to come to the best informed decision as possible. Everything is still very much hypothetical at this point.

Thanks again, Speeddemon651

I think I understand what you're trying to do, which is but one reason I suggested that you get a mechanic to look at the thing. Probably won't need to be an in depth look.

But you're going to go to this guy and try to convince him to sell his pride and joy, based on "I posted pictures on the internet and this is what people I know nothing about said about your airplane"?

Best of luck.

MTV

I've always looked at my 180/185 purchases as engines, paint, interior, and panel are all just parts and transient. Albeit expensive parts...not to say they shouldn't be valued; they should absolutely. To me, though, the only thing I can't change is the history of the plane and corrosion. Sure, you can "fix" corrosion, but that may mean lots of new sheet metal. So I shoot for clean history (or a well repaired history i can live with) and no corrosion. Buy the cleanest, straightest fuselage you can afford.

To bracket this in my mind if looking to buy:

Base Airplane Cost--40K
Firewall forward (not including prop, assumes I0-520)--40K
Prop (new)--12K
Interior (including windscreen, and plexi, paint, prep, covering)--8K
Basic Panel work (wiring/resto included) plus ADS-B--14K
Paint-15K
Wheel gear (stinger, legs, brakes, wheels)---10K
Disassembly, trucking, storage, reassembly--5K

$144K

Notice that is prior to any sheet metal work (sky is the limit).

That's a general swag in prices I've seen in my own stuff...based on the pictures. What you'd have (in todays market) is a plane you couldn't sell without taking a huge loss IMO.

For reference, a clean, low time, ready to fly today 70's model 185 can be had from 130K to 180K depending on time, history and panel, 550 etc. And those airplanes have a good history and no corrosion history...which yours would potentially compete with. They can go for a lot more, but those have pristine documented history and "all" the mods plus an airliner panel.

59SC

mtv wrote:I think I understand what you're trying to do, which is but one reason I suggested that you get a mechanic to look at the thing. Probably won't need to be an in depth look.

But you're going to go to this guy and try to convince him to sell his pride and joy, based on "I posted pictures on the internet and this is what people I know nothing about said about your airplane"?

Best of luck.

MTV

Mr. Mike Vivion, no need to be a rude. The aviation community is a lot smaller than you think it is. You were pretty nice when I last talked to you at Oshkosh ?.

I did not get the impression MTV was being rude, he is just stating it like it is. Actually, his advice is spot on.

G44 wrote:I did not get the impression MTV was being rude, he is just stating it like it is. Actually, his advice is spot on.

Agreed. Now and again Mike can seem a little caustic in print, but that's not him--he's just being direct. Heck, any of us who have been on this forum for a time have seen him be much more caustic than that! Yet his advice is typically top drawer.

I do think you're trying to talk yourself into it, and I agree with Mike that the only real way to know what you're getting into is to have it examined by a disinterested mechanic. Over the years, I've been amazed at the junk that people buy because they didn't do that. Airplane junk is really, really pricey to turn into non-junk. It's better and a whole lot less expensive to start with something that hasn't deteriorated to junk status.

Cary

Speeddemon651 wrote:

mtv wrote:I think I understand what you're trying to do, which is but one reason I suggested that you get a mechanic to look at the thing. Probably won't need to be an in depth look.

But you're going to go to this guy and try to convince him to sell his pride and joy, based on "I posted pictures on the internet and this is what people I know nothing about said about your airplane"?

Best of luck.

MTV

Mr. Mike Vivion, no need to be a rude. The aviation community is a lot smaller than you think it is. You were pretty nice when I last talked to you at Oshkosh but I wouldn't say the same about now.

Joel Hackett, no need to be so sensitive. If this is all it takes to ruffle your feathers, the rest of your time here in this relatively friendly forum is gonna be rough. Please save the forum report button for something more egregious than a sarcastic "best of luck."

G44 wrote:I did not get the impression MTV was being rude, he is just stating it like it is. Actually, his advice is spot on.

Possibly, but to assume someone is going to purchase an aircraft based on banter in a forum without a through pre-buy inspection is kind of obnoxious. It's counter productive actually.

Cary wrote:
I do think you're trying to talk yourself into it, and I agree with Mike that the only real way to know what you're getting into is to have it examined by a disinterested mechanic.
Cary

Great advice here (in a thread with lots of good advice IMO). Maybe I'm the only one that will admit it, but I'm that guy that gets emotional about an airplane purchase. As logical and impartial as I try to be on the outset, my objectivity gets clouded when I'm looking at something like an airplane that's going to transport me to all the places i want to be....with the people i want to be with.

I've made the big mistake buying a fixer upper against other's advice. learned my lesson but it's still hard. Luckily i have friends that know planes that don't mind being direct when I'm about to make a mistake.

59SC

Speeddemon651 wrote:

G44 wrote:I did not get the impression MTV was being rude, he is just stating it like it is. Actually, his advice is spot on.

Possibly, but to assume someone is going to purchase an aircraft based on banter in a forum without a through pre-buy inspection is kind of obnoxious. It's counter productive actually.

Why? That happens all the time, that people buy airplanes without a pre-buy. For some, it works out pretty well, and they get a good airplane. For others, not so much.

One of the last lawsuits I handled before retiring was an example, a 182 with a very nice paint job, but which was in such sorry structural shape that it was going to take perhaps $30K or more to put into airworthy shape--and that didn't include firewall forward, which was actually pretty OK. The owner had paid top price for the airplane, because it looked so good to him. But as our expert witness said on the stand, "a nice paint job can disguise a lot of ills." There were many structural issues that could be only determined precisely by dismantling, and my client had made the mistake of agreeing to tackle the job.

The owner, however, remained under the impression that the airplane was fundamentally in good shape and became convinced that my client was trying to hornswoggle him. That 2 other shops on the field, including one which specializes in rebuilding wrecked airplanes, had refused to take on the reconstruction job because of what was found in a post-buy annual inspection by one of them, didn't dissuade him. The fact is, that airplane really was junk, and if he hadn't decided to file suit when my client was still in the dismantling stages of the reconstruction, the only way it was going to be a good airplane was with very expensive reconstruction.

Believe me, this is generally speaking one of the "kinder, gentler" aviation forums on the Internet. But if you ask questions, you have to expect answers, and most of the folks here aren't wired to tell you only what you want to hear.

Cary

fiftynineSC wrote:I've always looked at my 180/185 purchases as engines, paint, interior, and panel are all just parts and transient. Albeit expensive parts...not to say they shouldn't be valued; they should absolutely. To me, though, the only thing I can't change is the history of the plane and corrosion. Sure, you can "fix" corrosion, but that may mean lots of new sheet metal. So I shoot for clean history (or a well repaired history i can live with) and no corrosion. Buy the cleanest, straightest fuselage you can afford.

To bracket this in my mind if looking to buy:

Base Airplane Cost--40K
Firewall forward (not including prop, assumes I0-520)--40K
Prop (new)--12K
Interior (including windscreen, and plexi, paint, prep, covering)--8K
Basic Panel work (wiring/resto included) plus ADS-B--14K
Paint-15K
Wheel gear (stinger, legs, brakes, wheels)---10K
Disassembly, trucking, storage, reassembly--5K

$144K

Notice that is prior to any sheet metal work (sky is the limit).

That's a general swag in prices I've seen in my own stuff...based on the pictures. What you'd have (in todays market) is a plane you couldn't sell without taking a huge loss IMO.

For reference, a clean, low time, ready to fly today 70's model 185 can be had from 130K to 180K depending on time, history and panel, 550 etc. And those airplanes have a good history and no corrosion history...which yours would potentially compete with. They can go for a lot more, but those have pristine documented history and "all" the mods plus an airliner panel.

59SC

59SC,

Thanks for your input !

I spoke with Wipline today and they said even thought the 3730's are discontinued, they still support them completely and what they don't have in standard stock can be made.

I also spoke with a buddy who professionally ships aircraft and got be a ballpark quote for $750 to pull the wings and transport the 185 via tractor trailer flatbed to my airport providing I help.

Speeddemon651 wrote:

mtv wrote:I think I understand what you're trying to do, which is but one reason I suggested that you get a mechanic to look at the thing. Probably won't need to be an in depth look.

But you're going to go to this guy and try to convince him to sell his pride and joy, based on "I posted pictures on the internet and this is what people I know nothing about said about your airplane"?

Best of luck.

MTV

Mr. Mike Vivion, no need to be a rude. The aviation community is a lot smaller than you think it is. You were pretty nice when I last talked to you at Oshkosh ?.

I wasn't trying to be rude. I was stating simple logic. I never suggested that you won't eventually get a pre buy done......that wasn't my point, and wasn't implied by me.

But, you come on this forum, asking for feedback on this airplane, which you provided pictures of. A number of people offered rational feedback, based on the photos and the history as reported by you.

Then, you respond with arguments that "Well, it really doesn't look as bad as the photos suggest". Hence my suggestion that you find a dispassionate, well qualified mechanic to do a "quick look", not as a pre-buy, but to assist you in establishing a reasonable price offer.

It's pretty obvious from your post suggesting the photos don't tell the real story that most of the responses you've gotten on this forum may be in serious error, based on your own statements. Which puts you back at square one, essentially.

Maybe loosen your undies up a little bit and try to look at this airplane from arms length, and with the advice of someone who really knows airplanes AND can walk around it, look inside inspection covers, etc in person.

But, that advice too is worth precisely what you paid for it.

MTV

I love your pa-11 MTV. They are pipers best kept secret.


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If you haven't had a chance to read through this thread: https://backcountrypilot.org/community/forum/latest/my-185-project-19856 you should give it a go. The young mans optimism has proven to be fruitful and he lists some of his costs in one of his latest posts. He's going to have a really nice airplane when it's done. I would love to see this project work out for you and I hope you share the progress if it does!

"Believe you can or believe you can't. Either way you're right" ...now cost is a different story

CW

If this aircraft were airworthy and TT is mid time (5436 is mid time for an 1981 185) this is a spit ball from Blue Book.

Basic value $140,000.00
Total Time Air Frame (5436.0 hrs) - - $0.00
Since Major Overhaul - (1700.0 hrs) ($15,002.50)
3730 - - $25,000.00
Needs new Paint - - ($5,375.00)
Needs new Interior - - ($5,500.00)
Total $143,622.50

This is how the market or a bank would look at this aircraft if it were airworthy and flying. You need to get a pre-buy done that is extensive to identify what it will cost to get it airworthy. There are some good estimates from some smart folks on here on those items. When you get your squawk list from a reputable mechanic you add the cost to get airworthy to the purchase price and if it adds up to more than the value you are upside down. You can look at engine add ons and other STC's and paint and rerag but those are going to just cancel the minus amounts in this valuation. As an example paint is $15K but you would only get a credit of $5375 for it in value. That's how you can go upside down quick on a project..

The big one here is aircraft TT. If this is a low time aircraft with no damage and complete logs (the big 3) it may be worth the refurb and the $100K you will put into it. If it is high time airframe, has major damage history, or lost or incomplete logs this one likely doesn't pass the smell test. Logs and damage can take about 15% each of teh above value. TT is incremental but in a buyers market it is a huge discriminator.

If I were buying this it would get an offer only if it had value in the market when I get done with it. That means the big 3 have to be there. As my late partner used to say don't fall in love it's just a bunch of aluminum shaped like an airplane and they made more.

Great first post Paul. Welcome.

Ok, I'm going to add my two cents.. As a fellow wagon owner speaking from personal experience. If that wagon you're looking at has spent any length of time sitting without proper care, it's going to cost you an arm and a leg to get it back into shape. And thats just the cost of parts not including labor. All the trick cool parts and stc stuff will nickle and dime you to death. The market is fairly soft and you will be hard pressed to recover your capital. The only way to justify it is to keep it long term and fly the value out of it. Quite honestly, if I was in the market for another 185, I'd be looking at aircraft for sale in Canada. There are some really good buys on some well equipped airplanes up north. Do yourself a favor and buy an aircraft with everything already done and flying. -Reality check time?

If Big Renna says it is too big of a project RUN don't walk away from that.