Update with 76 pictures:

I went to see the plane today but didn't have access inside it as it's locked and the owner works weekends on a vacation house.
I wanted to pull the cowling but most of the screws are rusted and most likely stripped out if I tried, so no go for now.
The battery looks to have been pulled out of the aircraft as well.
Basic VFR panel
There are a number of birds nests in it as well.
Floats are full of water but I'm not sure what model they are ? Data plate picture is included. WIPLINE 3730's ?
The paint other than the cowling and tail cone corrosion looks like it actually might clean up quite well to be honest.

Owner said it went through annual a few years ago but who I talked to on the field today said a minimum of 8 - 10 years ago.
Owner mentioned it has a few hundred house left on the engine before TBO and had good compression when it was parked.
Engine oil is full.
He's looking for the logs still and hopes to find them next week when he is back in town.

Hypothetically, If I was to acquire the aircraft for the right price, I'd be doing all of the work myself and have a good friend who is a professional aircraft shipper take it out on a roll back. It would be tough to get it flying where is.

Please let me know what you think;
What it's worth with and or without logs. (Keep in mind, I still don't know total time airframe yet)
Seller is also really pushing the notion that it could be made airworthy somewhat easily and the engine would be good for another 100-200 hrs till TBO.

76 photos link below:
http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/Joelw ... sna%20185F

From the looks of the pics I would plan on overhauling everything FWF including hoses, scat tubing etc. lots of stripping and fixing Corrosion and replacing rusty hardware. Tires, tubes, wheelbearings and races. Not sure if the late models have bladders, but I'm sure if it doesn't have fuel in them and they are bladders they are probably junk. Wonder what's hiding under the headliner, with it sitting outside and the roof and windshield probably leaks. Where is it located? Close to the ocean? Looks like good bones for a project.


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Looks like corrosion (?) in the the picture of the inside of the wing bay. Would need a very close inspection to make sure it hasn't found its way between the skin and stringers/spars/ribs etc.

Lots of corrosion on the engine mount and you'd want to look very closely at all the rubber hoses, baffling, etc. Based on the condition of the engine compartment, you'd really want to make sure the electrical connectors aren't corroded out. I'd plan on replacing every wire/connector that was exposed. You'll be fighting electrical problems for a long time if you don't go through it now.

To me, the corrosion would be the most concerning, as that can get out of hand pretty quickly and render an airframe unairworthy. Everything else has a tangible cost associated with it that can be negotiated.

If it were me, I'd give it a good bath and then start looking closely for corrosion both inside and out. I'd assume the engine needs an overhaul; exhaust, engine mount, etc, and certainly wouldn't factor in any useful life left after having not run for 8+(?) years. The peace of mind on a new overhaul after having sat for that long... worth it.

Lack of log books takes a big hit, as there is no way to prove to the next owner that the airframe has been maintained and repaired appropriately.

Keep us posted on how it goes!

The owner says he has the logs and just needs to dig them out. (Atleast Im willing to assume he has them untold otherwise.)

I peaked in the tanks and smelled and seen a few gallons of some very old gas.

The plane is paid for with no leans so he says as well. I know someone who offered him 40K a few years back and he turned them down pretty quickly.

In its current condidtion what do you think its worth as is ?

I believe that this airplane has bladder tanks based on the double filler necks and the round shape of the filler plates. Not asking where you are but I would be very concerned about the water in the floats if temperatures got below freezing at any time. Just looking at the corrosion in the photos it would take hundreds of hours including skin replacement of some areas to have a long lasting paint job put on this airplane. Some areas like inside the wings you would just have to be willing to accept as is. As an IA, I would be uncomfortable with the condition of the engine mount, and the potential amount of corrosion in the prop hub do to the bird droppings. So it really comes down to if you are looking for a deal or are willing to put into it what it takes to make it what one of these with new paint, interior, engine, prop, and float overhaul are worth ($180). If you give more than $60 you might as well go buy a flying airplane. I would not give $60 and the $40 he turned down is probably realistic. The problem you are going to have is the owner sees what it was and not what it is and likely will not sell it for what it is actually worth.
I had the same talk this week with a 83 year old pilot with a 77 180K he bought new. He is still flying it a little but would sell. Original paint, interior, and radios, 200 hour engine and prop do to a over run on a 900 ft strip, 1200 hours total time, Edo 2960's. Said he would start talking at $140, probably a fair deal at $90. Best of luck.

Tim

Ps as far bladders verse wet wings I'll take bladders, $1,000 for the bladder and $1,000 for the labor. On the Cessna Pilots Assoc forum they talk about $10,000 (yes ten thousand) dollar repairs to wet wing 182's, 2006's and 210's now that the sealant is 40 years old.

Based on your location, the pictures, the potential damage from your annual weather fluctuations, and just my gut reaction, I'd say that this airplane is going to take a whole lot of really hard work and boatloads of money to put back into airworthy condition. I'd be really concerned about salt air corrosion, which can be pretty insidious. Any engine that wasn't pickled and has sat for 8 years is potentially not much better than a boat anchor, especially in a salt air environment, or even a humid environment. The cold winters you get could have done a horrible number to the floats, when the water inside froze.

Frankly, I think the $40K he turned down was a reasonable offer--maybe actually high. You're talking about a huge financial investment to get it airworthy, if that can be done--and it can, but as they say, all it takes is money, and in this case, a whole pot load of it, along with lots of new pieces and parts.

An airplane that has been reasonably cared for and is 36 years old is very likely to be worth the effort. An airplane that has been essentially left to rot would be worth it only if it's not been ruined in the process. If it were a unique airplane, a restorable antique, for instance, that would also be different. But a 185, while a pretty good airplane, is just another airplane. There are a lot of 185s out there in much, much better shape.

Cary

IMHO I would run away from this one... I could see you spending $125-$150k in a heartbeat.

Verify that it's a 81 model. Wing tanks indicate that it is something earlier.

After seeing pictures I would have to lower the value 40-50 grand. You might get it flying for 60 grand doing a lot of the work yourself. It will still look like crap with 30 yr old dash.
DENNY

Bigrenna wrote:IMHO I would run away from this one... I could see you spending $125-$150k in a heartbeat.

Agreed!

You could spend well over 100k and a few years out of your life and have a nice running and looking plane. that the corrosion will start bubbling back up under the paint a year or two down the road!

Why not just buy a good one to start with?

You could be flying next week

If the floats are holding water consistently, not leaking it out, then they might still be tight. 3730s aren't supported by Wip anymore. You're on your own for parts. They're probably worth 20-30K.

Once the Logs are recovered you can start working out the value. A list of avionics will be needed.

I'd try to find out what his bottom dollar is. Negotiate with him to get him as low as possible then do a pre-purchase. Once you know what you're getting, re-negotiate.

Wow! It's really unfortunate that someone would allow such a beautiful and valuable machine deteriorate to this extent. Frankly, it looks to me that you'd have trouble down the road with this, even if you were to re-skin the airplane. The engine is just a core....a real iffy core at that. Prop was a POS when it was built, and doubtless junk now. Etc.

If you're looking for a bargain, this isn't it. He could GIVE it to you, and you'd be bleeding money trying to get it airworthy and right.

The Wip 3730 floats are waaaaaay big for a 185 and weren't all that great a performing float in any case......very heavy and draggy. Some of the early ones had very finicky retraction/extension systems......I've had more than one "gear in transit" landing with them. That can be fixed, but what condition are those floats? If like the airframe......ugly.

Looks like a parts machine to me.

Opinions are worth what you paid for them.

MTV

I hadn't found the photobucket when I made my first comments. 40K might be too much for the airframe. Floats may be worth as little as 15 in this state of neglect.

It would be nice to go through it a bit, but washing it, or any other attempt at TLC could only improve the appearance and raise hopes in the eyes of the seller.

How long since he's seen it? Can you get him to stand near the airplane while you have a conversation? I think his hallucinations could be cured and he might take 40K. I think he has his head in the sand, and you'll need to lift it out in order to make a deal.

It's bad, but not a total loss yet. These airplane's work in salt environments and some have become this bad in service in years past, and been brought back. It will need to be repaired, and then constantly be inhibited for the rest of its days. A fresh water, inland operator would never buy it, but a coastal operator would look past a lot of it.

I've talked to a lot of different people who get the idea to buy a project airplane and fix it up.
I don't know if they think they're gonna end up with an awesome plane for a bargain price or what.
That would be great, and I suppose if you can do all the work yourself it might come out OK-.
Esp if you're building it for yourself and so don't have to or want to figure in what your time is worth.
But if you ever plan on reselling, it quite often doesn't pencil out.
Doubly so if you have to hire much of the work done.

Like a lot of too-far-gone projects, it looks like you could easily put $100K into this one and end up with a $100K airplane.
I agree with Tango Fox: why not just buy a good one, and be flying it next week?

If you're really serious AND you think you may be able to talk him down on price, I'd hire an IA who is very familiar with Cessna and pay him to give you a report on what he thinks. Might cost you a couple hundred bucks, but either way it went, it'd be money well spent.

MTV

With no covers on, everything inside made of plastic or fabric will be brittle as a florescent light.
In addition to everything already mentioned, you will likely be up for new upholstery, glare shield, headliner, some panel parts, windscreen?, possibly more.

That steel engine mount is badly corroded, could be scrap if it's lost too much cross section.

I also thought that looked like corrosion inside the wings. It will probably need major disassembly to search for and remove corrosion.

The prop's lubricant will have deteriorated and seeped down, and it will probably have water inside. If there's corrosion inside the hub, you have to throw that away too.

If he gave you the airplane for free you would still be upside down in it financially. You would have spent a lot of time and aggravation over the years getting it done. Not worth it at all. It is a shame this fellow let such a fantastic deteriorate to such horrible condition. Having owned 2 185's and a 180 my guess to get it up to decent condition (not pristine but just decent) would be 150-200 grand.

Sorry for the late reply, I defiantly need to clarify some of the pictures because they are a little deceiving.

Wings:
I actually didn't find any corrosion in the wings. In the pictures, your seeing what looks to be a film left from humidity drying up I believe. If you look through the sequence of Interior wing photos, there is a photo where I rubbed it right off with ease, (one finger swipe). All of the interior wing exposed aluminum is smooth and isn't rough from degradation or corrosion at all (that I've seen). I know the photos look bad but the wings "so far" actually look good. I wouldn't mind taking a pressure washer to them on a hot day though. If the wings turn out corrosion free and just need a good pressure washing would you be willing to come up value wise ?

FWF:
Same goes for the upper cowling. Where the paint is flaking off, there isn't any corrosion behind it al all, just raw aluminum that's semi shiny. It looks like the primer didn't adhere well and baked of in the sun. No doubt It needs a firewall forward rebuild, the mount looks bad but might clean up well after bead blasting. These pictures make the engine mount rust look horrible but there doesn't seem to be any pitting yet in person. I wouldn't quite write it off yet but it sure needs to be inspected and repaired or replaced. I haven't seen the inside of the cowling yet but hopefully it has lots of primer on it.

Paint:
The paint is actually very glossy still, it's covered in a thick layer of mold. It would clean it up pretty easily with a bath and high speed buffer. Overall the only real corrosion I've seen is the engine mount, and tail cone so far actually. I still need to look in the belly etc and who knows what it looks like in the tail section. It's mostly so green because the plane is shaded by trees and goes hot to cold a lot adding to the growing moss collection. It's notable that the paint looks to be have been fresh when the current owner acquired this aircraft possibly a little over 10 years ago (hypothetically assuming when the aircraft was acquired).

Tail Cone:
Other than the engine mount, the tail cone looked like crap but I wouldn't hesitate to throw on another one. No reason to chase something that can be drilled out replaced and repainted. I'm no stranger to riveting.

Interior:
Doesn't offer much but I'm a minimalist, I'd quickly get rid of the carpet, plastic paneling at some point and lighten everything up as much as possible. I'd be happy to paint the interior and go back with foam to be honest. New leather seat covers and possibly stow-away rear seats.

Engine:
Perfect time to upgrade to the 550? Doesn't someone offer a core 520 to 550 conversion service, I thought I've seen it before.

Prop:
I don't know much about this specific prop but It's hard to tell until it goes in for overhaul or upgrade it to a MT.

Floats:
From what I saw, they don't look horrible, just dirty and full of water. I didn't see any distortion or expansion from freezing etc. Inside they were pretty clean and held water extremely well so they are most likely water tight. The sheet metal didn't have any dock rash and underneath weren't beat up from beaching or running them into things rocks or being beat up on wood blocks. The aluminum wasn't wavy at all in anyway that I saw.

Gauge panel:
Radio's were all old stuff, maybe a King or two radios etc. I'm fine to keep it a VFR and make sure everything works. I can always upgrade down the road.

Overall use:
I have other aircraft to fly but don't own anything that I would consider leaving outside for a week at a time. Most of what I own / fly is WW2 vintage and I'm looking for a 185 for weekend trips / camping and to carry 3 other adults + luggage (family station wagon). I would also most likely get a set of gear for it so I could pull the floats now and then. What I do like about this 185 is that it's within 2 hours driving distance of where I live and could be a blank slate to modify exactly how I want it. It also has a factory float kit as well, I really would not want to install one or pay to have it done either..

The seller is supposed to look for the logs and were going to talk again later next week. I was planning to schedule a time to meet him at the plane to point out the obvious issues and also see what the logs say. The price needs to be right or else this is all just good practice. As you can imagine, the current owner is a bit eccentric but is definite he's not flying anymore due to health issues.

Sitting on the aircraft seat is a ferry pilots business card, so I might be willing to assume the current owner was never checked out in the aircraft or if he was, he hardly flew it by himself which leads me to believe he bought it with a high time engine and fresh paint and just let it sit afterwards. Consequently this might add to the issue of thinking it's worth more then it is because he hardly used the aircraft and is reluctant to take a huge hit on it .

I've heard there have been several people who have tried to buy it previously that have failed, so I'll see where things go. He mentioned that he would like to reinvest the proceeds from it into a waterfront he recently bought so who knows. Thanks again for all of the feedback so far !

Sounds like you are talking yourself into it....!

If you can afford to fix it up with an IO-550 and MT, provided the old timer will sell her for a halfway sensible number, then this neglected old girl could certainly use your help!

Speedemon,

Interesting approach: Come on a public forum asking for feedback on a "project airplane. Get lots of responses, but then it appears you've already made up your mind.

It's impossible to fairly evaluate any airplane with photos alone. Again, I'd recommend you pay a mechanic to take a look at the thing before you go any further. He or she can give you a pretty good idea of any serious money pits in this thing, and there is potential for lots of those.

But, hey--if you have the $$$ to quickly consider an IO 550 and MT prop let alone the potential issues this thing presents, by all means go for it.

Let us know how the refurb goes.

MTV