Another sad ending to a search!

My thoughts and condolences to the family and friends.

Yellowbelly wrote:Damn
That especially hurts when young pax go down. My thoughts and condolences are with the families.

I wasn't there and I'm not second guessing the pilot, but 14mi due east of Fillmore after maybe filling up and loading 3 folks and toting Thanksgiving gear might be asking a lot of the Piper. It's a 5000ft climb to the ridge about 10mi away and it has a steep eastern face, kinda like a mini-Sierra Nevada. If they were going to Gillette, the magenta line is closer to interstate 15 for a ways north of Fillmore and there's that big pass through the mountains at Nephi just up the road... Maybe it was the kind of day where just clearing the ridge looks good enough, and that valley on the other side IS really pretty.

Maybe he didn't want to go over the pass to Scipio. I know, I once had a paper bag pass me on that stretch and I was going the speed limit and getting the best gas mileage ever. We will never know, but I'm painting a mental caution sign on that part of the map. Hwy 50 up that valley is beautiful, just like the Owens Valley, but you don't want to be flying up either of them at the wrong time.

YB

Very sad.

14 miles due east is not a place to be in the plane he was in with that load. When I go to Caveman I gas up at Fillmore. I go south to lower terrain then over Richmond and dodge the high peaks to lower terrain and Caveman. I to have hit some turbulent air in that area. I would want to be a couple thousand feet over the ridge if there was any turbulence. Probably got in a down draft and didn't have an escape plan or no time to execute it.

I bet the kid had something to do with stopping where they did, All else being equal, you'd clear that mountain before getting fuel. "I gotta go poop" is the reason I've seen some out of the way places.

It is sad to review another one of these " light plane strikes mountain..... no survivors". I feel for the victims and the family, however after a while it gets pretty old reading the same old story. The mountains are not evil in and of themselves but to the new and old pilots who attempt to cross them in airplanes that are close to their service ceiling and less then 2000 feet from the terrain they can be deadly. 30 or 40 knots of wind across the peaks and ridges can create mountain waves and turbulence many of these lighter planes cannot out climb or maintain control in. The mountain west is not always a safe place to fly on some days and a pilot needs to consider many factors. Weather and wind come in the mountains fast and we have certainly seen the result of it. I wouldn't be so vocal about this crash if it didn't come on the heels of several other tragedies . Remember the " Pilot for Christ" flight going to SLC a few months back just to return a visiting relative to Glenrock, Wyoming for work. He couldn't make it into SLC so he landed short at Morgan County and had the passenger rush there to her death. She though she was going home! Instead this pilot took off and about eighteen minute from Morgan county airport he radioed he was turning back..... due to weather. What could he see eighteen minutes from the airport he could not see or check on the ground? She left young children. Now remember the guy who flew out of Jackson Hole in an older Mooney with his three kids on board and tried to out climb the mountains into weather. What was he thinking. The mountain won. I hope some one can learn from these tragedies and not just the pilots but maybe the passengers who make the assumption that because you have a pilots license you are an expert. Many of these tragedies , and I believe many are avoidable, involve pilots described in their obituaries as accomplished or experienced.
Fly Safe All !!

Niteflyr7

RULE # 1...... Gravity wins EVERY time.....


RULE # 2...... Always Respect RULE @1.....

niteflyr7 wrote:paragraph

All good points. I feel like we as a group are better informed and trained regarding the dangers of mountain flying, as the topics seem to go hand in hand, and there exists a certain amount of implied accountability regarding getting training and knowledge for a group that aspires to do what we do. Ignorance of these topics like high DA and mountain turbulence isn't tolerated, and it's talked about ad nauseum, it's almost the safety focal point, and we still continue to learn the hard way.

Weather, however, is a whole beast in and of itself, and will always be a danger that pilots apparently have to learn of the hard way. Most pilots I know who are still kicking have a weather story that taught them respect early on, without killing them. Why are some of these lessons so difficult to learn by anecdote?

Many of the variables seem to be of the same recipe: Night, dynamic weather conditions, low time pilot, normally aspirated light piston single, etc, but not always. Instrument ratings, while a powerful tool, also seem to be a carrot that leads some pilots to believe they can charge on in the face of weather. It seems like it's always the guy who has only mellow IFR experiences under his belt that heads into the snow storm or thunderstorm only to learn the hard way about icing and severe turbulence and the limitations of his 180hp Mooney.

So, all that being acknowledged, what makes us do it? I say "us" because there seems to be this syndrome where all these bad things happen to other pilots, never me. I read about a guy crashing his family into a snowy mountainside and surviving, and I can easily tell you everything he did wrong. Yet I have caught myself doing things that I later identified to be possible contributors to disaster. I'm a low time pilot by the standards of this group, but for the past 8 years I've had the opportunity to read and learn every little anecdote and tale of near death posted on this forum, and most of them stick somewhere in the back burners of my memory. I think by our nature as backcountry pilots, we're automatically on the defensive, playing vigilant, knowing we're doing something regarded as risky, even by aviation standards. Perhaps that's a good thing for everyone.

My guess is none of the pilots had soaring experience....flying around in the lee side during high winds AND may e bad weather? Hello?

The Germans had it right (between wars) start pilot training in gliders.

On another forum they have a sticky that is one guy's version of the 10 causes of aircraft crashes. He claims they have not found any new reasons to crash in the last 50 years:

(1) Pilot needlessly flew into other than air.....(night VMC think Superstition mountain, mid air collision, and improper IFR, Runway LOC, and “hey watch this”)
(2) Pilot expected performance wildly beyond capability of the aircraft (high density altitude, Wintertime climbout from big rocks, four in a C172 with full fuel, Baron with five up and full Fuel and uphill runway eg. St. Ignace accident, etc).
(3) Pilot was cognitively impaired (drugs, fatigue, long duty cycle).
(4) Pilot departed with known deficiency (propped the B58 and geared it up, Y***** J***** accident in Newark).
(5) Pilot was a scofflaw (no medical, out of annual, no BFR, “What-did-you-expect”).
(6) Pilot ran out of go-juice (planes fly better with go-juice).
(7) Pilot fails to request help.
(8) Pilot FAIL in icing conditions (think TMB 850 accident at MMU).
(9) Pilot did a **** poor job with the planning and failed to abort the accident chain (get-there-it is, both fuel and weather).
(10) Pilot failed to perform adequate on-ground actions

Take from it what you will.

I really believe what others have said here over the years. There are certain personalities that thrive on pushing the limits, rationalize the dangers and overstate their abilities...in all aspects of life. I don't see that changing. Give that person an airplane and they will check one of the boxes above, someday. Period.

Unforeseeable bad luck may still get a few but the accident rate would be minuscule if we could keep from checking one of the above.

And yes Niteflyr7, that 210 accident near Morgan was a horrific example of #1 and the Mooney too.

Fly safe all.

SixTwoLeemer wrote:On another forum they have a sticky that is one guy's version of the 10 causes of aircraft crashes. He claims they have not found any new reasons to crash in the last 50 years:

(1) Pilot needlessly flew into other than air.....(night VMC think Superstition mountain, mid air collision, and improper IFR, Runway LOC, and “hey watch this”)
(2) Pilot expected performance wildly beyond capability of the aircraft (high density altitude, Wintertime climbout from big rocks, four in a C172 with full fuel, Baron with five up and full Fuel and uphill runway eg. St. Ignace accident, etc).
(3) Pilot was cognitively impaired (drugs, fatigue, long duty cycle).
(4) Pilot departed with known deficiency (propped the B58 and geared it up, Y***** J***** accident in Newark).
(5) Pilot was a scofflaw (no medical, out of annual, no BFR, “What-did-you-expect”).
(6) Pilot ran out of go-juice (planes fly better with go-juice).
(7) Pilot fails to request help.
(8) Pilot FAIL in icing conditions (think TMB 850 accident at MMU).
(9) Pilot did a **** poor job with the planning and failed to abort the accident chain (get-there-it is, both fuel and weather).
(10) Pilot failed to perform adequate on-ground actions

Take from it what you will.

I really believe what others have said here over the years. There are certain personalities that thrive on pushing the limits, rationalize the dangers and overstate their abilities...in all aspects of life. I don't see that changing. Give that person an airplane and they will check one of the boxes above, someday. Period.

Unforeseeable bad luck may still get a few but the accident rate would be minuscule if we could keep from checking one of the above.

And yes Niteflyr7, that 210 accident near Morgan was a horrific example of #1 and the Mooney too.

Fly safe all.

That's a whole lot of typing to say what John Wayne said in two short sentences. But I'm not allowed to post that pic.


G'Day Mr. Prick

.....And if truth be known, ALMOST all of us have been in situations that were 'mighty close calls' that could have ended differently. We shake our heads at our stupidity, and resolve/vow to NEVER be that reckless/stupid/careless/arrogant/whatever-again.
Some of us get that chance. Some of us don't.
The very BEST/SMARTEST thing we can ALL do is learn from other peoples mistakes (see the list of 10 above). Life is too short, and it is too painful to make all the mistakes your self!

Redundant, yes, but apparently we humans need frequent reminders.
lc

Littlecub wrote:.....And if truth be known, ALMOST all of us have been in situations that were 'mighty close calls' that could have ended differently. We shake our heads at our stupidity, and resolve/vow to NEVER be that reckless/stupid/careless/arrogant/whatever-again.
Some of us get that chance. Some of us don't.
The very BEST/SMARTEST thing we can ALL do is learn from other peoples mistakes (see the list of 10 above). Life is too short, and it is to painful to make all the mistakes your self!

Redundant, yes, but apparently we humans need frequent reminders.
lc

Holy Moses that is true. I have been so close to getting snuffed it isn't funny, or maybe it is. I have done my share of really STUPID SHIT!!! Hey voting for you know who wasn't one of them.

OregonMaule wrote:That's a whole lot of typing to say what John Wayne said in two short sentences. But I'm not allowed to post that pic.


G'Day Mr. Prick

"Stupid" is not the same as "oversight while preoccupied or distracted," or failure to recognize impending trouble because of inexperience. Even "ignorance" is not stupidity, but rather a lack of knowledge. Stupidity suggests a lower mental faculty, which may account for some crashes, but I believe that accidents happen to otherwise good pilots too. Was Sparky stupid? The guy wrote a great volume on mountain flying, and he knew what was right and what was wrong in the mountains. Perhaps he made a bad, or hurried decision, but it only takes one. I don't think he was stupid.

Oversimplifying it as "stupid" is a disservice to intelligent analysis of events that maybe benefit you, despite the deja vu, and is stupid, err...ignorant in its own right. Ironically, it's indicative that one cannot, or does not want to think about it.

See you Saturday

stu·pid (stpd, sty-)
adj. stu·pid·er, stu·pid·est
1. Slow to learn or understand; obtuse.
2. Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes.
3. Marked by a lack of intelligence or care; foolish or careless: a stupid mistake.
4. Dazed, stunned, or stupefied.
5. Pointless; worthless: a stupid job.

I believe sometimes "Stupid" can also be based on outcome.
As in 20/20 hindsight.
It is those 2 or 3 things that are missed (or ignored) and allowed to compound upon each other to end in a bad outcome that, added together looks....stupid-again-in hindsight.

IMO
lc

I know, not written up in Webster's that way.

OregonMaule wrote:That's a whole lot of typing to say what John Wayne said in two short sentences. But I'm not allowed to post that pic.


G'Day Mr. Prick

Uh Rob...

That would be 2 independent clauses separated by a semicolon. Don't be stupid

Damn i hate results like these for sure, as we all do...having flown those sections a lot for meetings and such over the last 10 years in a couple diff. 182's, i must say that the winds out there can be brutal. one benefit i have had is the fact that i convinced myself long ago, not to "have" to be anywhere. can i land the 182 down there somewhere if it all goes to hell? you bet i can...can i camp a nite if i have to ? yup on that one too...always be willing to land out in the bush's if that's what it takes to stay safe...some of the best off airport pilots are here i know. im certainly not even close to their abilities im sure, but i do know i can stuff the 182 almost anywhere... us old dirt-bikers are survivors and explorers for sure...sorry about all the losses we just read about for sure, sucks for all those left...

Ignorant, inexperienced, uninformed, unaware--all are less accusatory words than "stupid" to describe a very new private pilot (Dec 2011) in an airplane he had owned for a year (Nov 2011). How many of us knew what we know today, after hundreds or thousands of hours, X advanced ratings and certificates, when we were mostly wet behind the ears as pilots? Many of us took chances in our early days of flying, when we didn't even know enough to know we were taking chances. We flew close to gross weight near the service ceiling of under powered airplanes in weather that was marginal, and we didn't know any better. We didn't know the effects of mountain waves, of moving weather fronts, or even of density altitude. Not because we hadn't heard about them, but because we hadn't been there and done that. When we're first flying, we can't begin to put together all of the information that we've had crammed into our heads, because it takes years and years to experience even a small part of it. All of us here have been fortunate to survive those learning experiences, so far.

We're all students, at one level or another. None of us is good enough to point fingers and call others names.

Cary

Condolences to family and friends. It's one thing to stuff yourself in a hole but with passengers, especially children - we owe to to them to have extra margins of safety. Sad deal. I'm going home and hugging my boy.

What Cary said!

Unfortunately, sometimes the most effective training is reality. Some situations I was in when I was younger had me wishing I was on the ground rather than flying...and that took a lot back then. They play an important role in how I fly today.

Bad things still happen, even to knowledgeable and careful pilots...and it's about what happens next that really counts.

Here's to making the next year safer than this one has been for so many. Let's keep accident reporters bored in '13.