So my Skylane was down for about 6 weeks for an altitude indicator overhaul, VSI overhaul, ADS-B install, Airglas nose fork install and all that entails (brakes, new wheels, tires, FAA BS) and a few other little things. While I was waiting on all that to get done, I decided I was going to study hard and knock out my written. I scheduled it for Nov 27th (my 37th birthday) which also happened to be 15 years to the day after my first solo. I didn't feel as prepared as I would have liked but such is life, especially with twin 3 year olds. Nonetheless, I took it and was done in about 50 minutes and passed with a 93%. It was very happy to have that monkey off my back. The following week I got my airplane back and have been burning fuel.

I'm finally starting to get into sync with my machine. My landings are getting consistent and I'm starting to feel confident with the bigger heavier airplane. I'm embarrassed to say, but it took me awhile - alot longer than I expected - to get the feel of the 182. I'm also starting to get the new rubber figured out which really smooths out the bumps on the grass.

Earlier this week, I learned a few very valuable lessons though. I have seen many of you share these pieces of advice before but sometimes until you experience them for yourself, they don't sink in. It happened like this......we were practicing some short field work on a narrow 1,700' grass strip with tall trees on both ends. It took me a couple passes to get my speed right but I finally got in over the trees. The first mistake which my instructor willingly let me make was to not taxi all the way to the very very end of the runway. With a ditch at one end, I was trying to be careful and not get too close. Hindsight, I could have inched closer and gotten another 50' or so. Cue mistake two, I made a rolling turn and applied power what I thought was smoothly. Hindsight, I did it too slow. This wasn't apparent to me until I was surprised at how much runway I had eaten up without being airborne. I got the nose off with the stall horn blaring only to see the trees which were quite taller than me approaching at an alarming rate. Cue mistake three; novice instinct kicked in and I started to pull back on the yoke because I was scared I wasn't going to clear. At that point my instructor verbally instructed me to keep the airplane in ground effect with a firm hand on the right yoke to make sure I did so. At this point, the trees felt like they were within a stones throw. About that time, he initiated the climb and told me to climb on out, I did and we cleared the trees. I couldn't tell you by how much but to me it felt too close. It probably wasn't but nonetheless I was rattled and I think my instructor got a good chuckle out of it. I'm not a nervous bird by any means but this situation got my attention and made me realize how little mistakes in aviation coupled together have the ability to compound into bad shit. On the way home, we talked through what I did wrong and how I could do it better next time. I'm thankful for my instructor's approach and willingness to try and impart some of his wisdom. For me this was a great learning experience and practical confirmation of theoretical knowledge. These are three mistakes I'll hopefully never make again. And I got new underwear out of it. Win-win.

Today, we had pretty marginal weather so we spent it doing some IMC work. I didn't think I would like flying in IMC conditions and doing instrument approaches, but it was weirdly fun.



The beach from the air is pretty no matter what the weather


My old girl buttoned up for the night, until next time.

Great thread and beautiful plane.

58Skylane wrote:Great thread and beautiful plane.

Was wondering about you the other day Pat. Glad to see you're still checking in.

A1Skinner wrote:

58Skylane wrote:Great thread and beautiful plane.

Was wondering about you the other day Pat. Glad to see you're still checking in.

Great to hear from you, too. I’ll check in more often. I’m still 50/50 on buying another plane. I put in about 6-8 hours in a 172 this last summer just local around Cody.

Yes, good to hear from you 58 Skylane. I keep block time on the local 172 to have one of the instructors fly with me out to Hanger Kafe or fly with someone coming around.

contactflying wrote:Yes, good to hear from you 58 Skylane. I keep block time on the local 172 to have one of the instructors fly with me out to Hanger Kafe or fly with someone coming around.

Yes. Good to hear from you too. I’m actually impressed with the 172’s Choice Aviation has. They have the 180hp and STOL kits and perform well out of Cody which is about 5000ftmsl. They have a 182RG but I need something I can take off for a week or so and that I can fly over the northern Rockies with gear in the back.

58Skylane wrote:Great thread and beautiful plane.

Thank you sir!



My instructor finally solo’d me last week since I passed my written - he wouldn’t sign me off until I passed it as he said I would never study. He’s probably right. I hate studying and love flying. Anyway, I think I’ve logged 15+ hrs since then (last Wednesday) and have burned about 140+ gallons of fuel. I’ve been going every morning before work and most afternoons if the wind doesn’t pick up.

Re: my big tires, I have a couple observations and a question for you boys. They seem to be far more sensitive to landing speed than the 6.00s. In other words, I could touchdown a little fast with 6.00s and other than a chirp it wasn’t all that different. If you land at all hot with the big wheels they are almost grabby feeling. My first landing or two it almost felt like something was rubbing (although it wasn’t). After some thought and more practice I really just think I was carrying too much speed. Once I slowed it down and flew the airplane all the way to stall in close ground effect every time, the “grabbi-ness” seemed to subside substantially. There is still some additional drag over the 6.00s but the difference is nominal.

Personally this has forced me to 1) come in slow and not touch down until the horn starts blaring and the airplane quits flying, every time, and 2) it also keeps me aware of keeping the nose off and babying my firewall. In the stock configuration, I definitely wasn’t as cognizant of this.

I assume the grabby feeling I described and my diagnosis of why is correct? Can you guys confirm/deny? As always, thankful for the help.

losbright1 wrote:Wow. Nice little strip, and great photos. I am a newbie in primary training also, and have not had the opportunity to do any grass landings yet. Like you , I live in an area with mostly private turf strips, although I have started getting together a list of public grass strips nearby that I will be visiting once I get my PPL. I have seen a few people at my home airport landing in the grass beside the runway, so that is an option as well. My CFI is pretty conservative overall and I am not so sure that he will be interested in taking me to any. I am "down the street" from you in Greenville, SC..

Greenville is an excellent place for aviation. I learned to fly in 1999 down in the Charleston area.I crisscrossed all over the Carolina's and South East over the years of flying there. South Carolina has an excellent aviation heritage and culture. I am going to recommend that you join the FB group "South Carolina Breakfast Club" it's history stretches back to the early 1940's and every year, they host weekly breakfast fly-in's at one of the many airports within the State. Its a great group and often you can hitch a ride with someone if you are not a pilot, but wanting to go.

Tons of grass Airstrips in the Carolina's. Off the Top of my head, Timmonsville, just west of Florence is excellent. A GREAT fly in lunch location is STANTONS BBQ, it is located near Bennettsville, SC. If your instructor is "conservative", that is not necessarily a bad thing. Just make sure to clearly communicate your desire to experience a grass airstrip. Suggest that you might plan a trip to visit one for lunch. Remember, you're the paying customer. Reasonable requests for such things should easily be made and incorporated into training. It makes things fun and exciting. Here is the link to a great article about STANTONS BBQ. I have personally been there a few times over the years and have enjoyed it. Hop on down to Holly Hill, SC or any of the public grass strips throughout SC.

https://generalaviationnews.com/2018/07/23/stantons-barbecue-looking-for-a-new-generation-of-pilots/

Ya the big tires do definitely feel different. I am sure the big tires really amplify any gear misalignment, which I am sure all of ours are to some degree. You will get used to "plopping" down nice and slow and taking off always with 20 deg flap getting off the runway as quickly as possible - You aren't scrubbing rubber in ground effect.

Mark Y. wrote:Ya the big tires do definitely feel different. I am sure the big tires really amplify any gear misalignment, which I am sure all of ours are to some degree. You will get used to "plopping" down nice and slow and taking off always with 20 deg flap getting off the runway as quickly as possible - You aren't scrubbing rubber in ground effect.

Ok, thanks. Been playing with 10 vs 20 degree flap takeoffs and it really leaps off with 20 vs 10. Thanks for the advice and also the mention about the gear alignment. Seems like every one of our old birds has its own set of idiosyncrasies. I know mine does.

For instance, when in cruise my bird takes full right rudder trim to stay straight, otherwise I skid along. I assume this is most likely a cable issue that isn’t properly adjusted?

You can feel it in the rudder pedals when you trim the rudder. When you trim full right can you feel the right rudder pedal down? Should feel significantly different than the left. Then trim all the way left and feel the pedals. Should feel balanced in the amount of change in either direct in the feel of the pedals. If not, adjustment issue in the trim system. If you can it would be in the rigging in general. My B model takes very little rudder trim usually.

Nushi wrote:

Mark Y. wrote:Ya the big tires do definitely feel different. I am sure the big tires really amplify any gear misalignment, which I am sure all of ours are to some degree. You will get used to "plopping" down nice and slow and taking off always with 20 deg flap getting off the runway as quickly as possible - You aren't scrubbing rubber in ground effect.

Ok, thanks. Been playing with 10 vs 20 degree flap takeoffs and it really leaps off with 20 vs 10. Thanks for the advice and also the mention about the gear alignment. Seems like every one of our old birds has its own set of idiosyncrasies. I know mine does.

For instance, when in cruise my bird takes full right rudder trim to stay straight, otherwise I skid along. I assume this is most likely a cable issue that isn’t properly adjusted?

First off (disclaimer), I am not an instructor, not currently proficient, far from an expert or even close and I haven’t flown a 182 in over 8 years. So with that said........ Have you been practicing your TO’s with flaps deployed before you start your ground roll or have you tried no flaps when starting your ground roll then deploy 10-20 degrees right at rotate speed? That really helps pop that plane off the ground like a rocket ship.

I miss the straight tail 182. I had a 1958 model and really enjoyed practicing every take off and landing scenario.

Mark Y. wrote:You can feel it in the rudder pedals when you trim the rudder. When you trim full right can you feel the right rudder pedal down? Should feel significantly different than the left. Then trim all the way left and feel the pedals. Should feel balanced in the amount of change in either direct in the feel of the pedals. If not, adjustment issue in the trim system. If you can it would be in the rigging in general. My B model takes very little rudder trim usually.

Thanks for this explanation. Pretty sure I can feel it in the pedals but I’ll check.

58Skylane wrote:
First off (disclaimer), I am not an instructor, not currently proficient, far from an expert or even close and I haven’t flown a 182 in over 8 years. So with that said........ Have you been practicing your TO’s with flaps deployed before you start your ground roll or have you tried no flaps when starting your ground roll then deploy 10-20 degrees right at rotate speed? That really helps pop that plane off the ground like a rocket ship.

I miss the straight tail 182. I had a 1958 model and really enjoyed practicing every take off and landing scenario.

Ive done both but most of my TOs are with flaps preset. At this point with limited experience I’m trying to focus on keeping it relatively simple, although I have witnessed what you are talking about and it definitely pops the airplane off. Thanks for the tip!

Nushi wrote:

58Skylane wrote:
First off (disclaimer), I am not an instructor, not currently proficient, far from an expert or even close and I haven’t flown a 182 in over 8 years. So with that said........ Have you been practicing your TO’s with flaps deployed before you start your ground roll or have you tried no flaps when starting your ground roll then deploy 10-20 degrees right at rotate speed? That really helps pop that plane off the ground like a rocket ship.

I miss the straight tail 182. I had a 1958 model and really enjoyed practicing every take off and landing scenario.

Ive done both but most of my TOs are with flaps preset. At this point with limited experience I’m trying to focus on keeping it relatively simple, although I have witnessed what you are talking about and it definitely pops the airplane off. Thanks for the tip!

You bet. Have fun.

Regardless of popping flaps or just pre-setting them, we lose ground effect energy by delay to get a nice jump. The design of the airplane is to fly. We gain efficiency by getting into low ground effect as soon as the airplane will fly in low ground effect. This may require a little dynamic proactive elevator control to get off the surface and stay down in low ground effect with a 182 or to quickly get the fuselage level in low ground effect with low powered airplanes.

Heavier airplanes with considerable power want to climb out of low ground effect soon after coming off. Low powered airplanes want to stay at too high pitch attitude to stay off, but a sharp pilot can find level without touching back down. Worry about prop or gear is unfounded. No harm with touching back down. We learn by doing. It will come in time.

contactflying wrote:Regardless of popping flaps or just pre-setting them, we lose ground effect energy by delay to get a nice jump. The design of the airplane is to fly. We gain efficiency by getting into low ground effect as soon as the airplane will fly in low ground effect. This may require a little dynamic proactive elevator control to get off the surface and stay down in low ground effect with a 182 or to quickly get the fuselage level in low ground effect with low powered airplanes.

Heavier airplanes with considerable power want to climb out of low ground effect soon after coming off. Low powered airplanes want to stay at too high pitch attitude to stay off, but a sharp pilot can find level without touching back down. Worry about prop or gear is unfounded. No harm with touching back down. We learn by doing. It will come in time.

Thanks Contact. As I have been flying the last two weeks I have been thinking about the uniqueness of how you put things sometimes. I don’t always understand what you say immediately but they do eventually click if I think about them enough. Having said that, I am with you 1000% on the proactive elevator control to get into low ground effect on takeoff. Arguably my favorite feeling is nosing the airplane back over, cleaning it up and watching that speed build as I’m 10’ off the deck, then onward and upward. If it wasn’t frowned upon I would fly out the runway length every time in ground effect. What an awesome feeling!

On the flip side, my landings are where I am still scratching my head from a theoretical perspective. My instructor has done his job with me and taught me to learn the “power off (idle), round out to ground affect, then land” technique. Although this is the standard in today’s world, it seems to produce inconsistent results, at least to me. Granted I suck and have a lot to master but still.....

During my time solo I practice this technique as well as a slight power in, stabilized nose level/up descent to low ground effect with power coming out in low ground effect just before the desired touchdown spot. Personally I like this method better because my spot landings are more predictable, and frankly the whole scenario feels more controlled to me. With the power in until just before I reach my touchdown spot, I can hit the numbers more often than not and be stopped with little braking in well under 1000’. My air speeds are more stable (and slower overall), and my descent rates are more stable and consistent. I carry very little extra energy and as soon as the power comes out, my stall horn goes off and she quickly quits flying. It’s not such a roller coaster.

However, my instructor, whose opinion I value greatly, continues to urge me to land power off (idle) because in his advice this will force me to fly to plane down into ground affect without any outside forces other than me and the relative wind affecting the airplane. I get this and I think it’s relevant to my experience level in that it teaches me to learn the wing and how to fly it. At some point though, it would seem most pilots, esp in short field enviroments would transition out of this technique when spot landings become of greater importance. Is my thought process flawed on this? What are the downsides to a stabilized, power in, pitch for airspeed, power for altitude approach?

I am just curious if this is one of those things that is taught because it’s the current standard from the FAA and it’s how examiners determine proficiency or if this is actually best practice and carrying some power into short final is really just an easy button/bad habit.

I know the benefits of the stabilized approach have been talked about in detail on many previous threads but my primary question is why it’s not taught to students in today’s environment.

Not going to take anyone’s comments as formal instruction. I’m really just curious.

Nushi,

There is considerable safety advantage in using pitch to reduce airspeed below 1,3 Vso on short final and using elevator to control the resultant extra sink rate with the slower airspeed. The wing will fly slower with extra prop blast over the root, the touchdown spot is more controllable, touchdown is slower and softer, and the longitudinal axis alignment control (rudder) is much more effective. Loss of control while landing, the highest accident rate, occurs mostly on the surface where extra airspeed is much, much more damaging.

The 1.3 Vso stabilized airspeed approach is an excellent way to arrive at short final. Continuing at this much faster than .3 times stall airspeed in low ground effect all the way to round out is neither energy efficiency nor safer than controlled deceleration (elevator pitch control) and controlled descent (throttle movement to control sink or balloon.)

We need to adequately stay current on engine failure to spot landing. The statistical fact is that most forced landings touch down beyond halfway through the available landing zone surface available. This sad fact is the result of discomfort and lack of experience with deceleration from short final to touchdown. Yes, we need dead stick practice. We also need deceleration from short final to touchdown on the numbers practice.

The ACS calls for no more than 1.3 Vso, which is much better than the old PTS. It also calls for consideration of energy management concepts both in takeoff tasks and landing tasks. Many of us have been teaching energy management for years. It is good that it is part of the school solution now.

It would be logical to assume that having used the apparent brisk walk rate of closure short final to touchdown on the numbers multiple times daily crop dusting and patrolling pipeline and only doing power off spot landings with an occasional student, I would not have had sufficient currency with forced landings. Yet in 13 engine failures, I managed to get down slowly and softly in the beginning of the landing zone. We totalled a Cobra in Vietnam and I totalled a CallAir in Texas. I had a very good feel for the kinetics of crashing. Slow but still flying works well.

You have a flight test coming up, so attending to the school solution works best for that. You also will likely fly the rest of your life. Learning to fly efficiently and safely are equally important. Neither the Vx pitch attitude upon achieving Vx airspeed nor the stabilized airspeed approach all the way to round out are terribly unsafe. They are certainly less efficient than continued acceleration in low ground effect as long as possible and some kind of power pitch deceleration from short final to touchdown on the numbers slowly and softly.

Good luck. Play the flight school game and also experience greater energy management efficiency to the extent you are comfortable with. When you get your ticket come to 2H2 Aurora Missouri and fly with me. Vx+10 is acceptable and more maneuverable than Vx. On every one of those forced landings, I was better because I maneuvered in an energy management efficiency way.

Contact

Great 182 discussion! I am enjoying learning the ropes of our newly acquired '59 182B. It has the Sportsman STOL, vortex gens, 8.50 tires all around, an O&N 18 gal baggage fuel tank, airglas nose fork, and firewall mounted battery. I find that most approaches work out pretty well flown at 60-65 mph (depending on weight, which is about 65-70 mph CAS according to the POH) with flaps 20. Despite the icy runways up here lately, I can stop in around 1000 ft most of the time; hopefully with better friction and more importantly better pilot skill, i can cut that number in half. Stall with power on seems to be about 40 mph IAS (which is about 55 mph CAS according to POH). It's my understanding that the 1.3 Vso approach speed recommendation is based on CAS, not IAS.

I feel like the sportsman STOL leading edge cuff takes bout 5 mph off all the book numbers. Vy seems closer to 85 mph, Vx about 60 (or as close to stall as you are comfortable flying). Fastest IAS I get is about 125 mph IAS at 23"/2450 rpm with cowl flaps closed.

This is in PATK, was tempted to make the 1000 ft turnoff, but the skating rink runway conditions had me opting for the midfield turnoff on the 3500 foot runway. Flaps 20 and 65 mph.

https://tinyurl.com/uqwjsc3


Carb ice is a major concern for us. I've been using it in all phases of flight except takeoff and initial climb, leaning the mixture to compensate. It does have a carb temp gauge and we try to keep it in the green. Supposedly below 10 F or so carb ice is not likely to occur, but we still use it even during taxi unless dust/debris is a concern.

I look forward to having a lot of fun with the machine, thank you for sharing your experiences.

I love my B model. Wish i had the sportsmen! Bit at a time. Good video, but remember next time - Say NO to vertical video! So hard to watch