I have used 122.750, or a CTAF for air to air communications in quiet areas, but down in the valley all the frequencies can get pretty busy. Are there other acceptable options for discreet air to air, or air to ground?

Always kinda pisses me off when folks chat on CTAF. When I hear knuckleheads yappin 150 miles away on 22.7/8/9 it makes me bonkers. We typically talk on fingers. 123.45

bigrenna wrote:Always kinda pisses me off when folks chat on CTAF. When I hear knuckleheads yappin 150 miles away on 22.7/8/9 it makes me bonkers. We typically talk on fingers. 123.45

Drives me nuts too. By "quiet areas" I mean mountain valleys and canyons where there is no other traffic, or if there is, they are probably glad for the heads up that there is other traffic.

The approved air to air frequency is 122.750 mHz. Here's the section from the AIM:

Other Frequency Usage Designated by FCC Use Frequency:

Air-to-air communication (private fixed wing aircraft). 122.750

Air-to-air communications (general aviation helicopters). 123.025

Aviation instruction, Glider, Hot Air Balloon (not to be used for advisory service) 123.300

While lots of pilots use "fingers", or 123.450 mHz, that is a currently assigned trans polar/oceanic frequency. I doubt most folks are going to interfere with communication on that frequency while operating in the lower 48, (I have heard complaints from airline pilots transiting the north pole that they were hearing Alaska pilots chit chatting on that frequency), but the point is, it is NOT legal to use that frequency for air to air comm in the US.

To me, the irony is that if you listen on 123.450 almost anywhere, it's often hard to get a word in edgewise for all the chit chat that's going on. Now, switch to the LEGAL air to air frequency, and you'll most often hear.....silence.

Finally, I have to make the point that radios are installed in aircraft for specific purposes. None of those purposes involve "Citizens Band type" shooting the shit, which is prohibited on ALL these frequencies by both the FAA and FCC.

Sometimes, it's important to coordinate between aircraft (formation flights, position reporting for collision avoidance, etc), and that's what 122.750 is for. UNICOM or CTAF frequencies should not be used for these purposes either, unless you're within a few miles of the airport.

Personally, I used to just love hearing the corporate jets going into Aberdeen, SD, from 20,000 feet and waaaaay out, calling the Aberdeen FBO on the CTAF requesting that their passenger's reserved rental cars be ready immediately upon their arrival, and "Oh, yeah, we're going to need the lav serviced and fresh coffee and rolls for the next leg". All the while, we're in the pattern with eight other aircraft at an uncontrolled airport on that same frequency "only" 200 miles away, getting blanked out by said jet "captain".

One of the things I think we should all strive for (airline and corporate pilots alike) is to act like professionals while flying airplanes. That includes proper radio discipline. And, yes, some of the worst offenders I've heard were airline pilots who were on their off days, flying their Super Cubs.....

MTV

bigrenna wrote:Always kinda pisses me off when folks chat on CTAF. When I hear knuckleheads yappin 150 miles away on 22.7/8/9 it makes me bonkers. We typically talk on fingers. 123.45

123.45 is used here in flyover country...............er wait................whos flying over who(m)

Per 2005 FAR/AIM:
AIM table 4-1-3
air-to-air & private airports ...........122.750
122.850
air-to-air (GA helos) .....................123.025
aviation instruction,
glider,hot air balloon.....................123.300
123.500

Around here, we usually use 122.75 but it gets pretty cluttered up. Some folks like fingers 123.45, others jumbo 127.47. For some reason 122.85 isn't used much around here. Me & some friends used 122.77 for a while, until we got our ass chewed on the air by someone for doing so.

mtv wrote:The approved air to air frequency is 122.750 mHz. Here's the section from the AIM:

Other Frequency Usage Designated by FCC Use Frequency:

Air-to-air communication (private fixed wing aircraft). 122.750

Air-to-air communications (general aviation helicopters). 123.025

Aviation instruction, Glider, Hot Air Balloon (not to be used for advisory service) 123.300

While lots of pilots use "fingers", or 123.450 mHz, that is a currently assigned trans polar/oceanic frequency. I doubt most folks are going to interfere with communication on that frequency while operating in the lower 48, (I have heard complaints from airline pilots transiting the north pole that they were hearing Alaska pilots chit chatting on that frequency), but the point is, it is NOT legal to use that frequency for air to air comm in the US.

To me, the irony is that if you listen on 123.450 almost anywhere, it's often hard to get a word in edgewise for all the chit chat that's going on. Now, switch to the LEGAL air to air frequency, and you'll most often hear.....silence.

Finally, I have to make the point that radios are installed in aircraft for specific purposes. None of those purposes involve "Citizens Band type" shooting the shit, which is prohibited on ALL these frequencies by both the FAA and FCC.

Sometimes, it's important to coordinate between aircraft (formation flights, position reporting for collision avoidance, etc), and that's what 122.750 is for. UNICOM or CTAF frequencies should not be used for these purposes either, unless you're within a few miles of the airport.

Personally, I used to just love hearing the corporate jets going into Aberdeen, SD, from

20,000 feet and waaaaay out

, calling the Aberdeen FBO on the CTAF requesting that their passenger's reserved rental cars be ready immediately upon their arrival, and "Oh, yeah, we're going to need the lav serviced and fresh coffee and rolls for the next leg". All the while, we're in the pattern with eight other aircraft at an uncontrolled airport on that same frequency "only" 200 miles away, getting blanked out by said jet "captain".

One of the things I think we should all strive for (airline and corporate pilots alike) is to act like professionals while flying airplanes. That includes proper radio discipline. And, yes,

some of the worst offenders I've heard were airline pilots who were on their off days, flying their Super Cubs.....

MTV

MTV,
You paint with a broad brush. Do you mean all airline pilots or just airline pilots with Super Cubs? The airline pilots I know who fly GA are very professional and pride themselves on minimizing verbiage hence time on the frequencies. With little experience one can anticipate what the controller needs and give him or her that on the first transmission.Many times the controller will reply with "approved as requested"... Bang! done.

I get frustrated when I am on a crowded frequency whether it is a unicom or center frequency and someone is keying the mike for 30 seconds or more spewing unnessesary superfluous verbiage and no one can communicate. The controllers grow frustrated and if you listen you can hear this in the tone of their voices.

Addressing your comments concerning coporate pilots requesting services "20,000 feet and waaaaay out". Understand, 20,000 feet is not way out when your are descending at 340 to 290 kts indicated. It is considerablly less than 30 minutes if one does the math. 30 minutes is often is not enough time to prepare service trucks and rental cars to keep the operation on schedule. These pilots are doing their jobs as time is money. Although this may seems like an annoyance to you they need to use the frequency as well as you.

My experience has been different than your yours. Not all airline pilots are scofflaws and undisciplined. Although I cant always tell who is an airline pilot flying on their day off and who is not. Who do you do it?

Sound fair,
Jim

Finally, I have to make the point that radios are installed in aircraft for specific purposes. None of those purposes involve "Citizens Band type" shooting the shit, which is prohibited on ALL these frequencies by both the FAA and FCC.

THANK YOU MTV!

The chit-chat on 122.9 can be so bad in the Idaho backcountry that I just turn my radio off. Half of it is "I had this for breakfast and my current rpm is..." and half of it is poorly delivered position reports that mean absolutely nothing to any other pilot like "Um backcountry traffic ...this is N1234ABC...um..a Cessna 182, currently bearing 227 over, um 227 magnetic degrees over ahh...Bear Creek to land at, well after Smiley Creek at Thomas Creek".

Position reports are a great use for 122.9, and I can almost forgive the people who give ridiculous ones, but the yak-yak is inexcusable.

Add to that a half dozen skydive companies using the frequency, one of which apparently instructs its pilots to end every communication with "Hoorah!" and it's just a freaking mess.

I like to monitor 122.9 and I like every possible heads-up I can get for traffic, but the misuse of the frequency makes me apoplectic. People get downright indignant when you ask them to take their non-aviation traffic to a different channel, so I just turn it off.

I've suggested carving the backcountry up into different frequencies based on large geographic areas but nobody seems interested in the project.

My personal opinion is whether in backcountry or in the pattern people use the radio about five-times more than they need to, and unlike most other things in life, more isn't better.

Hammer wrote:My personal opinion is whether in backcountry or in the pattern people use the radio about five-times more than they need to, and unlike most other things in life, more isn't better.

In grade school, we were taught that we had two eyes and two ears but only one mouth because we are supposed to watch and listen twice as much as we speak. Folks seem to forget that lesson.

romaja wrote:
MTV,
You paint with a broad brush. Do you mean all airline pilots or just airline pilots with Super Cubs? The airline pilots I know who fly GA are very professional and pride themselves on minimizing verbiage hence time on the frequencies. With little experience one can anticipate what the controller needs and give him or her that on the first transmission.Many times the controller will reply with "approved as requested"... Bang! done.

Addressing your comments concerning coporate pilots requesting services "20,000 feet and waaaaay out". Understand, 20,000 feet is not way out when your are descending at 340 to 290 kts indicated. It is considerablly less than 30 minutes if one does the math. 30 minutes is often is not enough time to prepare service trucks and rental cars to keep the operation on schedule. These pilots are doing their jobs as time is money. Although this may seems like an annoyance to you they need to use the frequency as well as you.

My experience has been different than your yours. Not all airline pilots are scofflaws and undisciplined. Although I cant always tell who is an airline pilot flying on their day off and who is not. Who do you do it?

Sound fair,
Jim

Jim,

I used the term "some" in the quote that offended you. If I'd intended to paint with a broad brush, I'd have used a different term, such as most. I agree that the vast majority of airline pilots are very professional in radio discipline.....there, I painted with a broad brush. My point was simply that we're all guilty of this at times.

But, please note that this was about air to air comm, not communication with ATC.

How did I know SOME of these folks were airline types? I recognized their voices.

As to corporate pilots calling that far out, it's mostly to prevent their clients from having to spend a few extra minutes in an FBO, not to save a lot of ground time....as often as not, that jet is going to sit there for half a day, waiting on the customers.

And in any case, tying up literally dozens of uncontrolled airports' CTAF is a lousy trade off for a bit of convenience or even saving a few minutes time on the ramp. Particularly if someone at one of those uncontrolled airports has a near miss or worse because they miss a call. I know.....look out the window, right? Fine, and corporate crews can get their client's rental car lined up on via cell phone or Unicom during taxi in.

MTV

There doesn't seem to be as much chit chat on 122.9 in the Colorado backcountry. Mostly it's position reports. But there's always going to be someone who has diarrhea of the mouth, almost anywhere, whether in the backcountry or in an airport vicinity. Just a week ago, I overheard a guy calling into KFNL CTAF with a mile by mile report of his position, starting about 12 miles out--ending each transmission with "any other aircraft in the area, please advise". When someone else also called in a few miles out but from a different direction, First Guy kept asking Second Guy's position, with "I can't see you yet"--must have asked at least a dozen times. This was on a day in which they were the only airplanes nearby except for me, and I just listened (I was about 1000' higher than they were). What would he have done on a typical KFNL Saturday with 6 or 7 in the pattern?

Cary

Just use 123.45 like everyone else.

Without pulling my AFD and actually getting off my lazy butt and looking it up, Isn't 122.85 also air to air?

GroundLooper wrote:Just use 123.45 like everyone else.

Without pulling my AFD and actually getting off my lazy butt and looking it up, Isn't 122.85 also air to air?

The pertinent portion of the AIM has been posted twice here...no need to look it up.

Yes, 122.85 USED TO BE an approved air to air frequency, but for reasons unknown, it was removed from that use a couple years ago.....unfortunately.

I know of one large collegiate flight training program that still using it that way, though... .

MTV

How sweet is was to fly most of my life without a radio. Giving way to all other aircraft isn't so bad. You don't have to listen to all that stuff.

I am always amused about how pilots get spooled up over trivial stuff like this.

I use 123.45 most days, unless it's busy, then I'll try 122.75, and if it's busy I'll just make one up.

Doesn't the AIM say in the opening pages that it is NOT regulatory?

I'm always amused at work by the guard nazi's. These guys jump all over the corporate or regional guy who inadvertently calls in range on guard.

AEROPOD wrote:I am always amused about how pilots get spooled up over trivial stuff like this.

Doesn't the AIM say in the opening pages that it is NOT regulatory?.

Yep, the FAA does not enforce frequency use. The FCC does....I've heard. I doubt that anyone has ever been cited for misuse of frequencies.

But, this stuff is only trivial if you're not in the middle of a goat rope and somebody is yakking up a storm on the "proper" frequency. Like at Johnson Creek during a big fly in, for example.

And, wouldn't it be nice if we all tried to actually fly like professionals?

MTV

mtv wrote:
And, wouldn't it be nice if we all tried to actually fly like professionals?

MTV

I agree - to a point. I fully acknowledge we need to be courteous and brief on the radio to make space for necessary comms. But man the professionals can be stuffy douches. I'm a profession all day at work and I fly for fun. In the end we just should strive not to be an ass - and I agree it can be hard to recognize when you're being an ass.

mtv wrote:
But, this stuff is only trivial if you're not in the middle of a goat rope and somebody is yakking up a storm on the "proper" frequency. Like at Johnson Creek during a big fly in, for example.

And, wouldn't it be nice if we all tried to actually fly like professionals?

MTV

I won't argue with that. I think it was already mentioned that some folks spend 45 sec on a position report that turns out to be useless to anyone. These are generally the same folks who are yakking it up when we need the freq clear. Of course I hear guys in the 121 world who sound like it's their first day on the radio.

As far as professionalism in aviation, I'd pick on a few other things before this.

AEROPOD wrote:
As far as professionalism in aviation, I'd pick on a few other things before this.

Here's a tutorial on pilot-talk.



Gump

We use ATC frequencies in our local area that are not used in hundreds of miles of our area.
Keep those frequencies between you and your buddies and you always have a quiet channel to BS on.
We use 2 different ones here and have never heard any negative feed back.