Nosedragger wrote:Notes to self:

1) don't use ifr terms on a vfr day. Final approach fix may be construed As final to others and vfr traffic doesn't know where the hell BUMFK is.

2 ) entering a hold over the faf is a good way to practice required holding patterns AND give your vfr buddies room. 6 minutes later, they're landed and you're at the fix again to shoot the approach with a hold in your logbook.

Agreed. Some guys think they are talking to ATC on CTAF on a VFR day with other VFR aircraft around them!

8GCBC wrote:

Nosedragger wrote:Notes to self:

1) don't use ifr terms on a vfr day. Final approach fix may be construed As final to others and vfr traffic doesn't know where the hell BUMFK is.

2 ) entering a hold over the faf is a good way to practice required holding patterns AND give your vfr buddies room. 6 minutes later, they're landed and you're at the fix again to shoot the approach with a hold in your logbook.

Agreed. Some guys think they are talking to ATC on CTAF on a VFR day with other VFR aircraft around them!

Students and most non-IR private pilots don't have any concept of IFR approaches, so it's definitely best to use "VFR terminology", such as the Seneca pilot apparently did in this case, i.e., so many miles north on a straight in for 15.

This thread brings up another issue, that those who are comfortable flying in and out of towered airports often feel overwhelmed at a busy non-towered airport--and quite frankly, it works the other way, also. So all of us need to get regular practice at both.

That includes both types for the IR folks, too. As the saying goes, you fly like you train. If all you ever do is fly IFR into towered airports, shooting approaches into non-towered airports is a bit different and a lot intimidating, especially if it's a non-radar environment, which is common. It's not good to have your only experience doing it on a low IFR day, where you're in IMC down to about 6 or 700 feet AGL in Class E, and then when you switch to CTAF, to hear Bugsmasher XXX is taking the runway you're approaching, because he doesn't mind scud-running. Best to have experienced that in practice, first. So I would not advocate only shooting practice approaches at the nearest C or D. For another thing, you're likely to have to fly pretty far in some cases. For instance, in Wyoming, the only towers are at Cheyenne, Casper, and Jackson. In Colorado, you've got the 4 in the Denver area, Colorado Springs, and Pueblo along the Front Range, and Grand Junction on the Western Slope. Yet in Wyoming, there are 40 non-towered airports, and in Colorado there are 67 non-towered airports. Granted that not all of the non-towered airports have instrument approaches, but the majority do.

With the exception of the occasional Citabria prick as in this case, melding practice IFR approaches into a non-towered pattern isn't difficult, as long as everyone does things responsibly. That means pay attention, get the big picture in your mind, and fly safely according to the regs and the AIM. It's the characters who make up their own patterns and TPAs that are the trouble-makers, not the occasional IR pilot doing IFR practice approaches.

In this case, to be repetitive, I think both Kev and the Seneca pilot did just fine. The Citabria jerk was out of line.

Cary

7 miles at 120mph 3.5 mins
7 miles at 90mph 5.7 mins
Not including flair,

How long does it take you to fly a pattern from throttle on to wheel stop?
You posted this so you're alive that's as good as it gets

There's a saying for the other pilot, "He'll get glad again probably in the same pants he got mad in"

coloradokevin wrote:Even if the situation hadn't been as dramatic as the one you posted (which I think you meant merely as a hypothetical?)

Hypothetical indeed. Actually I was trying to bust AKGreg's chops with that post but he isn't following this thread apparently.

Oh, I was following this thread Senior Squash. I'm still trying to figure out how I acquired a Citabria and what is that awful smell emanating from my hangar??

There will always be people who don't fly/talk/walk/pretty much everything the way we think they should do it. Who gives a shit? As long as that person doesn't jeopardize my safety, I'm cool. I'll extend my downwind, I'm flying an airplane. Wahoo!

Bonanza Man wrote:

OregonMaule wrote:

robw56 wrote:7 miles out on final is still pretty far... Even in a Seneca. I would have landed in front of him and been clear of the runway well before he was landing.

I second Rob

Uh, no. Saying you're on final does not mean all other traffic now has to follow you. No way in hell if I'm midfield I'm following an aircraft on a 7 mile final. What if he calls 10 miles out? 15? Where does it end?

I agree completely. The caveat I'd add is before I turned in front of him, I'd want to be sure he actually IS 7 mi
les out. Usually, in those cases, they're actually ten out, but I've seen them call five out and by MK I eyeball, they were actually about a mile out.

Before I turn in front of them in a case like this, I would want to see them, or at least be certain they're a long ways out.

But, wait while someone flies a leisurely straight in from the next county? No thanks.

MTV

The way those controllers push the big tin is a thing of beauty, but like Mike says, we little guys have no business flying close formation with pilots we don't know. We are in a see and avoid world. See means with our eyes, not our ears. And avoid means really avoid. I've flown the pipeline running 100' south of 36R and 36L at Memphis when they were bringing Fed X guys in on both. They did a fine job getting me through. A lot of the guys at the local airport are professional as well. We just don't know which. Again, from 100' AGL, you can see very clearly what is coming at a ninety degree angle.

Agreed.

I like to see AND identify anybody close to me in ANY flight situation. Not just a traffic pattern, if possible.

I will ask for color and type aircraft, ( after position & altitude ) if there is ANY possibility of confusion.

Waiting it out for the Twin Seneca is perfectly reasonable.

coloradokevin wrote:But, I just thought I'd share the story and see what you guys have to say (air rage stories? how would you have flown the pattern on this one yourself? etc.).

Here's my air rage story: https://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/air-rage-12940

Scolopax wrote:

coloradokevin wrote:But, I just thought I'd share the story and see what you guys have to say (air rage stories? how would you have flown the pattern on this one yourself? etc.).

Here's my air rage story: https://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/air-rage-12940

Newport City Airport (KONP) is a lot more friendly now. Please consider visiting us again! We have some local pilots that are really cool. The FBO is friendly and the famously good free hotdogs and hamburgers are served every Saturday @ 12:00 with a smile

8GCBC wrote:

Scolopax wrote:

coloradokevin wrote:But, I just thought I'd share the story and see what you guys have to say (air rage stories? how would you have flown the pattern on this one yourself? etc.).

Here's my air rage story: https://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/air-rage-12940

Newport City Airport (KONP) is a lot more friendly now. Please consider visiting us again! We have some local pilots that are really cool. The FBO is friendly and the famously good free hotdogs and hamburgers are served every Saturday @ 12:00 with a smile

I have returned to KONP several times since that incident. I love the airport, the place and the people there. I'm definitely not going to let a couple of buffoons ruin a place for me.

Scolopax wrote:
I have returned to KONP several times since that incident. I love the airport, the place and the people there. I'm definitely not going to let a couple of buffoons ruin a place for me.

[/quote]

Thanks. I really love KONP too and I hope to see more people come over and say Hi!

It's important to consider the performance of other planes around you, as almost everyone has already said. I've heard "10 mile final" types complain about biplanes flying super tight patterns and cutting them off, not realizing that if some of those biplanes lose power in the pattern, they need to be on top of the runway in order to make the field. On the other hand, I've certainly done my share of complaining about students in 172s doing their cross country trips on downwind and final.

Citabrias are not exactly Stearmans, but they still don't have a great glide ratio, so flying halfway over Fort Collins at 1000agl in order to accommodate traffic that wouldn't even be inside a class D (if it was one) might have raised that pilot's blood pressure. They may have been unnecessarily rude in the pattern, but maybe they've been getting regularly bumped by a local flight school pulling long final shenanigans, you just don't know.

The glider primadonnas used to piss me off with all their shenanigans until I discovered slow flight practice. Now, it's kind of fun to putt along for the last 5 miles with full flaps and the stall horn hissing while I'm waiting my turn. Throwing it into granny in front of an angry Citabria driver might get you shot at though.

Nosedragger wrote:The glider primadonnas used to piss me off with all their shenanigans until I discovered slow flight practice. Now, it's kind of fun to putt along for the last 5 miles with full flaps and the stall horn hissing while I'm waiting my turn. Throwing it into granny in front of an angry Citabria driver might get you shot at though.

That raises a point we haven't discussed, slowing for spacing. Just because every downwind a pilot has ever flown was at 90 (knots or mph), doesn't mean that this one needs to be flown at that airspeed. Knocking it down to 70-75, which is doable in just about any light single, can make a huge difference in how large the pattern gets while the long straight-in pilot is flying in. Personally, I won't go to full flaps on downwind as being excessive, but 10 or 20 makes a big difference in slow flight controllability.

Cary

I operate out of a small dirt strip airport in CO and the stuff I've seen already just makes me shake my head. (before I bought my own plane, I operated out of a class c).

Lot of people flying around the airport and landing without using their radio - which in itself is whatever.. but they are usually doing very strange things like crossing mid field at 200ft agl, making low passes the "wrong direction" (with the wind) etc. I don't mind if someone is going to do something weird, but please use your radio and let the rest of us know! I mean this stuff is happening when I'm sitting on the ground about to take off after making some calls, or in the pattern etc.

I know it gets busy up that way... I was flying to sheridan and went by Greeley airport.. I was low from cutting under denver's bravo and the radio was non stop with traffic at greeley. Airplanes were going every direction at all different altitudes - some way to close to me for comfort. It was literally a zoo..

The OP could have cut in and landed, but the call you made to extend your downwind was understandable at the time. No point in pushing it if you didn't want to chance it being a little close. The citabria guy actually coming over the radio to bitch at you makes him out of line IMO! wow!

Nosedragger wrote:Notes to self:

1) don't use ifr terms on a vfr day. Final approach fix may be construed As final to others and vfr traffic doesn't know where the hell BUMFK is.

2 ) entering a hold over the faf is a good way to practice required holding patterns AND give your vfr buddies room. 4 minutes later, they're landed and you're at the fix again to shoot the approach with a hold in your logbook.

A few years ago, I'd been spraying all night and into the morning. It was quiet on the radio and I was pretty bored. I hear the metro doing the airline run call inbound to sierra India (ifr approach point at our uncontrolled airport) at time whatever and 2 500ft. Now these guys were a Budget airline that was full of pilots straight out of airline school and thought they ruled the skies. When making an inbound call to a ctaf you are generally talking to the vfr guys because centre would have advised you, and anyone that counts, about ifr traffic. So I decided to play with these guys and called them to tell them in my best country drawl that I was spraying at smiths farm. Panic ensued because they didn't know where's the smith's farm was so I clarified by telling them it was across the Rd from the Jones property. I then pointed out that ifr way points mean nothing to a vfr pilot and there was no conflict, especially since I low level and they were at 2500. Hopefully taught them a lesson. [emoji3]

And to the OP- I don't think you did anything worth getting snapped at.

I like other airplanes. Flying is fun! Weeeeeeee!

HaHaHaHa!!!!!