I flew my wife up to KFNL today, along with the CFI who did my BFR. We were doing pattern work at this airport, flying left traffic for runway 15, along with a few other airplanes who were flying either in the pattern or the vicinity. As we approached midfield on the downwind we had a Citabria behind us, and a Piper Seneca had just called a 7 mile straight-in (practice instrument approach) for landing. Given the Seneca's speed over our own aircraft, and the fact that they were already established on a straight in approach, we told them we'd extend our downwind and follow them in. We turned announced our base right after they flew by on final, and made the usual traffic announcement when we turned on final.

At this point the guy in the Citabria started angrily scolding us over the radio telling us: "you guys are ridiculous with this 4 mile final stuff". At the time he was turning base, and almost looked like he might try to cut us off on final, though he followed us in. We told him not to start an argument on the radio, and didn't hear from him again.

I'm not sure how you guys would have flown the pattern in that instance, but extending the downwind seemed like the wise choice at the time, and still does. I really don't believe the Citabria's pilot was listening to his radio, and I'm not sure he realized why we extended our downwind in the first place. But, I just thought I'd share the story and see what you guys have to say (air rage stories? how would you have flown the pattern on this one yourself? etc.).

Pretty arrogant of the Seneca pilot to execute a straight in practice instrument approach while there are other airplanes in the pattern and expect everyone to yield to him. Take it to a towered airport with an approach controller.

I was almost killed by a twin piper doing an instrument approach with five planes in the pattern. Probably 50-60' separation. I actually took a couple month break from flying after that.

Well, there's a whole lot of different ways to see that situation. You were being considerate and that's good, but...

I'm not super up on the current regs, but a pilot flying a practice ILS in VFR conditions is supposed to break it off and follow VFR traffic, not take primary position in the pattern. Least that's what I was taught. Giving way to him is fine, but maybe not to the guy behind you, who now also has to give way.

I love flying as much as the next guy, but I also fly for transportation, and sometimes another six minutes in the pattern is just as frustrating as spending six minutes stuck in a round-about in London...just time and money wasted for no reason or gain.

Regardless of your consideration for the Seneca pilot, if you really were turning a four-mile final, then perhaps there was ample room for you to go ahead and land and then the Citabria pilot and the Seneca pilot could figure it out for themselves?

Not saying what you did was wrong at all, but on most days I'd be pretty frustrated turing a four-mile final so a guy could fly an IFR pattern in VFR conditions because the guy ahead of me wanted to be polite.

Bottom line is if you've got three people in the pattern, two of them are probably pissed. How they deal with it is a lot more important than whether they're justified. One more good reason to avoid pavement at all costs...

Good on you for not getting into a radio bitch-fest. That's really the important part.

Arrogant? Really? Seems like there was good communication.


Also, how was the WX? Is there a chance the class E was active?

Was it a totally VFR practice approach just on a lark or was the Seneca in the system?

I have no trouble yielding to guys who are out there sweating under their foggles and shelling out real money with twin instrument practice.

Those of us out there boring holes single engine VFR are supposed to be having fun.

I would have behaved much the same as the OP, what's the big deal extending a downwind for somebody?

You did the right thing. The Citabra pilot had a radio; he scolded you. I have operated many times in those kind of situations without a radio. Coming from a spray field at about one hundred feet, I simply circled very close to the runway and watched the entire sky until I saw no aircraft. I avoided final like the plague and never got near the center line extended. Even without a radio, I observed a lot of what you experienced. I could see the guy way out on the straight in approach pretty easy because he usually had landing lights on.

There was a technique I used with guys, like the Citabra pilot, who got in my face a time or two. Most never saw me but occasionally I would be turning off the runway at the first turnoff at the same time as the guy landing long was turning off at the last turnoff. They can get pretty riled up. I just keep saying, "You are probably right," repeatedly until they shake their head and go away.

The idea that our time, any of us, is worth endangering somebody's life is bullshit.

I try to keep my pattern work nice and tight and do a lot of power off (idle) approaches abeam the numbers. It makes for a pretty quick turnaround when doing touch and go's but doesn't always work when others are in the pattern (especially students or pilots who like to keep it long, slow and touch down halfway down the runway). Based on what you describe I probably would have landed and been clear of the runway before the seneca was an issue. The citabria can make his own decisions after that. That being said, I've had to extend and/or slow my operation many times to accomidate for others in the pattern. And despite all of it, you made a decision that was best for you at the time and the right thing for others to do is follow standard practice and not get rude. So, I see nothing wrong with what you did.

CW

Seems to me as I remember the rules,(could be wrong) but who ever calls final first has the ROW whether ya like it or not!
Might piss someone off, but he called final!!
If you are downwind, you come after him!!
The other side of it is if it is costing you hrs to overhaul and you extend for 5 minutes while this guy bores on in and you have to do that a few time at 500 and hour that can cost a few penny's!! Might want to speak up and ask him if you could expedite and get out of his way? Lot of ways to do this with out getting rude!!

7 miles out on final is still pretty far... Even in a Seneca. I would have landed in front of him and been clear of the runway well before he was landing.

7 miles is a long way out.

In general, there are two things that frustrate me with folks in the pattern:

1) Constantly blathering on the radio without bothering to look out the windows for NORDO aircraft or aircraft that did not have a chance to call in because the talker is hogging the airwaves.

2) Being overly timid. Extending downwind significantly, flying 360's, etc, etc, for spacing is rarely necessary. However, folks seem to have some irrational fear of getting "close" to another airplane. You need just enough spacing that the guy in front has the opportunity to clear the runway, which can generally be accomplished with minor adjustments.

M6RV6 wrote:Seems to me as I remember the rules,(could be wrong) but who ever calls final first has the ROW whether ya like it or not!
Might piss someone off, but he called final!!

I can't tell if this is sarcasm. I've never heard that rule before. My understanding is that ROW is defined by who ever is lower, but you can't use that rule to cut in line. If you're 7 miles out on an ils, you're going to be way higher than tpa.

You can't call final if you have no radio, so would you never have ROW?

I always yield the right of way to anyone who wants it. Ain't gonna fight over it, I need the extra practice anyway. Citabria dude wants to be pissy, that's his baggage.

robw56 wrote:7 miles out on final is still pretty far... Even in a Seneca. I would have landed in front of him and been clear of the runway well before he was landing.

I second Rob

hpux735,

Helicopters and spray planes are supposed to operate away from the normal pattern as much as possible and to give way. I was too slow to risk getting in front of anyone. I was not heard and almost never seen. I spent about five seconds on final and always at an angle so as to cross the center line only briefly.

See and avoid is the rule. Without a radio you will very seldom be seen. With a radio you will occasionally be seen.

Contact

OregonMaule wrote:

robw56 wrote:7 miles out on final is still pretty far... Even in a Seneca. I would have landed in front of him and been clear of the runway well before he was landing.

I second Rob

Agreed. Call base leg and touchdown in front of the twin.

(7) miles is a different time zone

Since I fly frequently at KFNL, there are days when there are quite a number of airplanes in the pattern. I've done practice approaches there, too. The only time I've seen much of an issue is when 15 is in use by everyone else and someone is doing an ILS approach to 33. Even then, most practice approaches end in a missed approach so as not to interfere with folks going the other direction.

I'm assuming, although you didn't say, Kev, that the Seneca was coming into 15 also, which would put him on the RNAV approach to 15. I don't think his call that he was 7 miles out was any indication that he was claiming the runway, just making a position report. I do the same thing when I'm on an instrument approach, real or practice, i.e., I announce a distance out so that others know I'm on the way in. As I get closer, I'll announce again, typically, but like most others, when I get close enough to actually be on a reasonable final, I'll try to slide into the pattern with everyone else.

Incidentally, although my airplane is as poky as most in the air, I shoot my instrument approaches pretty fast--probably as fast as or faster than that Seneca, about 105 mph (91 knots) until I'm on very short final--that's just my preference. But when I announce that I'm 7 or 9 or whatever miles out, I sure don't expect others to get out of my way. If I'm on a 2 mile final, that's different, because by then I am likely lower than anyone on base and actually have the right of way per the regs.

So had I been in your position, I probably would have landed ahead of the Seneca and turned off at the first taxiway, as I usually do when landing on 15 at KFNL. If I was unsure of the Seneca's actual position (like if he'd made the 7 mile announcement while I was early on downwind), I might ask him his current position before turning base. If he was still 5 miles out, I'd turn for sure. If he was only 3 miles out, I'd probably do as you did, extend my downwind. Either way, though, it was your call, and what you did was certainly safe.

As far as the bitchy Citabria driver, I doubt that I would have said anything. I've overheard too many arguments on the radio, and they rarely accomplish anything. But apparently what you said didn't lead to anything more, so that's OK, too.

Cary

8GCBC wrote:

OregonMaule wrote:

robw56 wrote:7 miles out on final is still pretty far... Even in a Seneca. I would have landed in front of him and been clear of the runway well before he was landing.

I second Rob

Agreed. Call base leg and touchdown in front of the twin.

(7) miles is a different time zone

I'm in this camp. A 7 mile final in a lear would have been a different story.

Thanks for all of the opinions on the subject, everyone. Honestly, I won't begin to claim that I'm the most experienced pilot around here (not even close). I've had my airplane ratings for nearly 15 years, but spent about 12 of those not flying airplanes. As such, I ask these questions in an attempt to improve my own technique in the future!

I suppose it's kind of hard to draw the line on these things. At the time my mindset involved knowing that the Seneca is a light twin, with a cruise speed that is probably close to double mine. Given that I was only midfield on the downwind at the time, I estimated that I'd possibly create a hazard if I had tried to fly the pattern in front of him (right of way issues be damned). At this time I can't recall if the Citabria had announced that he was in the pattern behind us yet or not; I may have already known he was there, but may not have.

Anyway, I doubt this was truly a four mile final on our part. It really didn't seem that I extended the downwind by even more than a minute, the winds were very light, and a C172 sure isn't a speed demon (again, perception and reality could have been a bit different).

I guess with more time and experience it will probably be easier to judge when I can squeak a landing in before another aircraft, but I took the "better safe than sorry" approach in this case (knowing that the other aircraft was already straight-in, and quite a bit faster than mine). The CFI with me also agreed with my suggestion to extend the downwind, though I know that doesn't necessarily mean it was either right or wrong to do so.

Cary wrote:Since I fly frequently at KFNL, there are days when there are quite a number of airplanes in the pattern. I've done practice approaches there, too. The only time I've seen much of an issue is when 15 is in use by everyone else and someone is doing an ILS approach to 33. Even then, most practice approaches end in a missed approach so as not to interfere with folks going the other direction.

I'm assuming, although you didn't say, Kev, that the Seneca was coming into 15 also, which would put him on the RNAV approach to 15. I don't think his call that he was 7 miles out was any indication that he was claiming the runway, just making a position report. I do the same thing when I'm on an instrument approach, real or practice, i.e., I announce a distance out so that others know I'm on the way in. As I get closer, I'll announce again, typically, but like most others, when I get close enough to actually be on a reasonable final, I'll try to slide into the pattern with everyone else.

I was up at KFNL on Tuesday as well, and had the exact experience you described (with a practice instrument approach coming in to 33 while a number of us were flying the pattern on 15. I certainly don't mean to say that the Seneca was trying to claim right-of-way on his approach today, but the easiest and smoothest thing to do seemed to be giving way to him (at least at the time). So, we did that, but apparently someone else was VERY unhappy with that choice. It seems that if you try to make someone happy you're bound to piss someone else off in this game!

Admittedly, most of my flying (in the past and recently) has been at Class D airports. I currently fly out of KBJC, and have flown out of KAPA (in helicopters), and originally learned at KOSU. All of those places are Class D, and in the ones I've flown regularly in fixed-wing aircraft the most common thing I experienced was a controller asking downwind traffic to extend their downwind. I flew into a lot of non-towered fields when I was in Ohio, but none of those seemed particularly busy when compared to the ones I've been to along the Front Range in Colorado (Ohio has a lot more airports, which could have something to do with that).

Anyway, thanks for the thoughts and insight from everyone who has responded so far!

7 miles? I'd been in the hangar by the time he landed. I even had a bit of an issue this year at JC with some back east SC pilots calling final at what looked like darn near over Yellow Pine. This, with a long line of aircraft waiting to takeoff. So...wait several minutes while he slowly gets nearer, and then his buddy calls out from the same much too far distance. At one point I had started rolling for TO just as one of this group had announced final, I continued.my takeoff while he asked me if I wanted him to divert. I give him credit for politeness, but he was still 1/2 mile (at least) out when I had already made a 180 and was headed in the opposite direction at altitude. I remember thinking at the time, that he was probably an airline pilot, slumming for the weekend, LPPnot that there's anything wrong with that, just that the degree of separation seemed really excessive for the performance capabilities of our respective aircraft. It wasn't like either of us were in a fast heavy twin or similar. Nobody got angry though.

hpux735 wrote:

M6RV6 wrote:Seems to me as I remember the rules,(could be wrong) but who ever calls final first has the ROW whether ya like it or not!
Might piss someone off, but he called final!!

I can't tell if this is sarcasm. I've never heard that rule before. My understanding is that ROW is defined by who ever is lower, but you can't use that rule to cut in line. ......

Let's review FAR 91.113 right of way, in particular (g) landing.
"Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have right of way over other aircraft in flight.......
When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right of way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft".

Now it just remains to be determined just where or when "final approach" begins. If the airplane on final is 5 miles out and you turn a close-in base and land ahead of him, IMHO it's OK as long as you are down and clear by a safe margin before he lands. I tend to err on the side of caution. I admit that it seems rude to just bull your way in on a straight-in, but courtesy and legal right-of-way don't necessarily have much to do with each other.

Also, I agree with G44 that straight-ins might be more appropriate at a towered airport with a controller to keep everyone sorted out, but the nearest ones to KFNL (Fort Collins CO) seem to be Denver Jeffco or Cheyenne which are all a long ways away.