My wife and I have the opportunity to buy her grandparents place which is on about 5.5 acres. While I'm not excited about doing another major home renovation there is room for a 700ft runway and having my own runway is something I'd really like to have. The thing I'm wondering is if a 700ft runway, fence to fence, at 4500msl has any real utility or would it just be a novelty? I don't want a runway I can't really use.

The runway lines up with the prevailing winds. There isn't any significant slope. The trees at the north end can be cleared. The south end is clear for almost 700ft at which point there are power lines. Seems doable to me unless I'm loaded heavy with precious cargo.

whee wrote:My wife and I have the opportunity to buy her grandparents place which is on about 5.5 acres. While I'm not excited about doing another major home renovation there is room for a 700ft runway and having my own runway is something I'd really like to have. The thing I'm wondering is if a 700ft runway, fence to fence, at 4500msl has any real utility or would it just be a novelty? I don't want a runway I can't really use.

The runway lines up with the prevailing winds. There isn't any significant slope. The trees at the north end can be cleared. The south end is clear for almost 700ft at which point there are power lines. Seems doable to me unless I'm loaded heavy with precious cargo.

Only you can answer the question about whether 700ft at 4500ft is enough for your plane and your skills. Being unobstructed (mostly) is huge. I can operate out of my strip in Wisconsin in 300-400 ft with my plane and my skills at 1000ft and it's very satisfying to do so.

Do some calculating, and I suggest some actual flying once you finish your airplane.

Years ago, Wife 1 and I purchased a piece of property north of Laramie, which was long (1320') and narrow (330') and aligned about halfway between the runway directions at KLAR, which was about 6 miles southwest--ideal for a home and a runway, I thought. Then I put pencil to paper. At the time we were partnered in a TR182, and I'd been flying it for a couple of years so that I knew its performance capabilities. Fully loaded, the only way I could be assured of taking off at the runway's hypothetical elevation of 7300' MSL and a typical summertime DA in the neighborhood of 9500' would be if there were a stiff wind splitting Laramie's runways. Otherwise, I could get off the ground with half tanks and me just about any time, which would mean that for many of our trips, I'd have to hop over to Laramie to refuel and load up.That didn't make any logical sense at the time, but it was still a dream, which I harbored as I designed our dream house and hangar.

Then we were divorced, she got the property in the settlement, and my problem was solved!

Cary

Like Rw2 said, obstructions have to go to make it safe. Take out the trees and clear under the wire.

The advantage of taking off and landing short every time is that competence and self confidence is developed. The disadvantage is that many iterations increase the probability that two or three negative factors will come together in the same space and time to lead to an incident or accident.

Based on my experience flying a 180hp Bearhawk out of Marbelton, WY (6990msl) I'd say my 210hp BH would be just fine once I get in tune with it. But I've never flown off a backyard strip before so I don't really know all the gotchas.

Find a strip at the same altitude, preferably with the same surface and mark off your distance.

If you can take off and land there almost all the time, and safely go-around the rest of the time, you're good to go.

800' is quite a bit with a clear approach and departure.

Keep in mind the surface though. long/wet grass puts a lot of drag on and also DA, etc.

Whee,

You are thinking in terms of your Bearhawk with your 210 hp engine. Think in terms of richpiney's 150 with his 100 hp engine. Go to a long runway at the same DA as your farm with a 150 and see how short you can get out. I care about you. I don't care about your airplane.

Think about iterations and those two or three negative factors that come together in the same space and time. It is about you and not about your airplane.

I would think that your everyday strip should not require a bleeding edge landing or take off at full max gross.

As said before it is the combination of factors that will bite you in the butt.

At the end of the day it is your plane, your strip, and you (and your family) that matter. If you are confident you can operate safely into and out of it with an acceptable margin of error, then it is your decision.

I am guessing Idaho has a law that holds strip owners not liable if someone else cannot negotiate your strip and balls up their plane.

Liability laws are weird in my mind. Someone climbs a fence to get into your pool and drowns the some clown in a $1500 suit sues because the fenced pool is an "attractive nuisance" or "hazard".

Would it be possible to lease some land on either end to make it longer? A savvy farmer might rather have "guaranteed" money leasing a couple of acres to you rather than rolling the dice on growing crops.

Seems short to me, for that bird, I like the last suggestion.
My 400' strip serves me well, but the slope helps, a lot. That same helpful slope also means no choice as to what runway to use. You wouldn't have that issue anyway. I use half or less of my length, (so I got a fudge factor) not sure you could do the same, also not sure I'd want to have a 200' strip, with no fudge factor.

Whee, you're a lucky man, most never get the opportunity to be faced with the decision that you are. The first strip I put in was at my cabin in the California high desert, 1,000 ft long, 3,000 ft elevation. I did it for myself, my family, and my plane, not for others, though I knew full well that those capable would take advantage of it also. It was the greatest endeavor I ever did. Sure, there are those that cannot comfortably handle it for various reasons, but at times I've had 15-20 aircraft at my strip for a function, and I've probably had to pick up one or two at the local airport instead of them landing on my dirt strip, due to winds, aircraft, or pilot, it's never any problem, and they know that. Most know their limitations, and if not, I'll point it out and pick them up. As far as developing the skills, some chuckle now when they recall how they white knuckled it in, and how what seemed so small seems so long now.

Again, my personal rewards far outweighed what others loss might be for not being to land in 1,000ft in dirt. I did it for my aircraft and family, and I wished I had competed it earlier. The added bonus was others that could also make it, and the people we have met that can and choose to use it also.

BCP M7maule bringing it in



Shelter from the storm, HSF alumni



And, the best part, I got to do it again. A little jewel in the HIgh Sierras, 4,500 ft elevation, we just finished the cabin and 800 ft strip last week (in spring the strip will be 1,800 ft long after heavy equipment) Two have landed, though they are used to 200 ft departures and landing at altitude, and maybe a Maule next week? Sure, others have to wait till spring, but in the meantime those that can, do. WE'll try not to use up all of the fun.



If not for these strips, the three of us would not be sitting at Pappy and Harriets In Pioneer Town telling lies about flying stories and clearing yucca trees, and I may not have met either one of them. Good times from little dirt strips, and good friends.

Here is something that works for us: Fly the airplane in and out of your strip while light (the Bearhawk will do fine with only you), and meet at a better strip to pick up the load. That way you will save on hangar rental, It'll give you the ability to do maintenance at your convenience, test flights, etc without having to make time to go to the airport. Look on your chart for the nearest longer strip and see if you can make a deal for it's use (unless a public airport is nearby). Sometimes pax will balk at the inconvenience of meeting at another location for loading but the additional margin with precious cargo will make for a more pleasurable trip. I started out with 650' at our place but have since added a new 1200' so we can get in and out a little heavier.

I'd be reluctant to compare your proposed strip, 700' long at 4500' elev., with Big Piney, where the turf strip is 3300' long at 6994' elev. It's sort of an apples and onions comparison. If you measured 700' of the Big Piney strip and consistently got in and out well within that 700' with a relatively similar load to what you'll be carrying in your own airplane, then you might have something, but most of us tend to guess at distances rather than actually measure.

You will have more power in your airplane than the Bearhawk you flew at Big Piney, but your extra power won't make much difference in how far you roll before lift off, although it will make a difference in your climb rate. Depending on your loading comparison, your take off roll may not be any shorter at all.

At the risk of an apples and onions comparison myself, when I depart KGXY (elev. 4700') with just 2 aboard and less than full tanks, I can count on easily lifting off well within the 1000' markers on the runway--no effort at all, at a relatively normal DA. But if I'm close to gross, I'll roll well past the 1000' markers by a good 500'--it's amazing what an extra 400# will do. If it's a high DA day with that light load, I'll roll right past the 1000' markers by a couple hundred feet. And that's on pavement.

I've never built nor maintained a runway, but from observing the effort my friend Russ has to put into his runway regularly (Reed International, where I kept my airplane for a year), I wouldn't want to do it if I couldn't regularly and consistently use it. So I'd suggest that before you put in the work and expense of such a short runway, fly a Bearhawk similar to what yours will be, loaded as your normal load will be, off of a runway with nearly identical elevation and runway length, by marking off the actual distance on a longer turf runway.

If all that works, then great!

Cary

Is the property otherwise desirable? If it's not and it's just almost big enough to have a super short strip, I would pass unless it's a steal.

The cool thing about having an airstrip property is having your buddies some visit, and while many of us can work that length I'm sure, you'd never quite be sure of others. And even then, we all have off days.

The temptation to buy a decent sized piece of property and have your nice big shop hangar.... oh a man can dream.

BKK wrote:Would it be possible to lease some land on either end to make it longer? A savvy farmer might rather have "guaranteed" money leasing a couple of acres to you rather than rolling the dice on growing crops.

^^ this ^^

The way things are laid out it looks like you could easily double the length for not much money if you had a kind neighbor.

I've flown an O-540 260 hp Bearhawk for 600 hrs out of my 2000 ft pasture strip @1040 MSL; at this elevation, I'd consider 1000 ft the min for gross weight ops and frankly I always used the full length at GW. We see 4500 ft density alt max here. Incidently, global aviation insurance considers my strip 2 small to insure me, I'm told. Another factor is prevailing wind for your location. As you know, if your rwy isn't aligned with the wind, a/c performance is significantly impaired. It's also nice to have short crosswind rwy 90 deg to the main rwy. On several occasions I've had unforecast 30+ kt x-winds on the main rwy, and a 30 kt headwind makes for a short stress free landing roll.

I've got 2800' from end to end with trees at both ends. The FAA calls it 2200' with the displaced thresh holds. It is still too short for my future dream planes, Beech 18, DC3, King Air, Cessna Citation. But any runway is better than no runway. The pleasure of flying at home, even if only you and a few gallons of fuel are able to safely do it, is still a wonderful thing. If the wife is good with it, I say go for it.

Zenithguy, I'm not sure if you trying to discourage or encourage me to do it...That's a pretty rough crowd your hangin out with I'd say your living the dream.

Contact, I get what your saying. Back when I was flying the Luscombe a lot I could have gotten in and out of my proposed strip but I wouldn't want to do it every flight because, as TomD put it, that would be the bleeding edge of the airplanes performance. The BH offers much faster acceleration to a lower stall speed so using the same techniques it could comfortably use a shorter strip.

BKK wrote:Would it be possible to lease some land on either end to make it longer? A savvy farmer might rather have "guaranteed" money leasing a couple of acres to you rather than rolling the dice on growing crops.

The farmer is my wife's great uncle. He is a great guy but firmly believes farm ground is for farming. He has a dairy farm so the crops he grows are in support of the dairy cows. Still, It would be great if he'd sell us the pasture on the south end of the strip.

DeltaRomeo, Shuttling to a longer strip would be my plan. There is a county airport about 5 miles away.

Cary, You are right, comparing the entire runway at Big Piney with my proposed strip isn't a valid comparison. The part I left out is that once I had a few hours in the BH I never used more than first 800' of runway 31 and what was with me floating past the threshold bars almost every landing. I think comparing 800' of pavement at 6990msl with 700' of pasture at 4500mls is reasonable...from a performance standpoint. Add in the mental factor of having only 700' of runway then yeah, the comparison goes back out the window.

Zzz wrote:Is the property otherwise desirable? If it's not and it's just almost big enough to have a super short strip, I would pass unless it's a steal.

Yes, the property has other very desirable features and we may end up there regardless of the strip. The price is really good but the house will need some extensive renovation and additions which means major time and money.

Interesting about the insurance company not insuring based on home runway, never thought about that.

Guess I just need to finish the plane and if we buy the house I'll have to reevaluate. I think it is doable.

jrc111 wrote:I've flown an O-540 260 hp Bearhawk for 600 hrs out of my 2000 ft pasture strip @1040 MSL; at this elevation, I'd consider 1000 ft the min for gross weight ops and frankly I always used the full length at GW.

That's really interesting. I have a factory built bearhawk (Maule M7-235C) with an O-540 that I base out of 800ft and regularly fly out of 400ft. There are some 400ft strips that would be a challenge at GW, but I'm GW on 800 ft without hesitation. My other direction is 1200 obstructed and that hasn't been an issue either. I'm surprised you feel as limited as you do. Can you say more? Is there soft ground? High grass? Obstruction? Is it more of a comfort thing?

Rough ground with dips and seasonal tall grass, domed so uphill on takeoff and landing. No obstructions above threshold height for several hundred feet. By gross weight, I'm assuming 2700 lbs takeoff weight vs the Barrows 2500 lbs, which some describe as a landing weight. At 2700 lbs, I could get it off under 700 ft, but it was a wallowing ground effect accelerate just above the ground departure, not a positive rate rate of climb takeoff. At 2500 lbs, about 500 ft. Landing rolls at 2500 lbs at about 400 ft were possible, but required a flat wing approach and power in the flare to match the upslope. That's assuming calm winds and moderate temps. To clarify my 1000 ft strip recommendation, that would be an easy strip at my elevation, assuming no engine trouble. 700 ft IMHO would require high performance technique at 2700 GW. 1/4 tanks, pilot only and no stuff, easy-peasy.