Hi guys,
As some of you know I recently bought a 185 with the help of BigRenna. Just picked it up a few days ago. Do you 180/185 pilots have any advice on a 600 hour pilot with mostly 182 time and low tail wheel total time? My only real time has been in a Citabria and SuperCub; with about 15 hours of just touch and go's (150-200 landings?). I'm for sure a bit nervous or I wouldnt be asking this question. But I just have a lot of respect for the bird and want to minimize my chances of it biting back. "Keep it straight" Im sure someone will say. But anything else that has helped you transition? Thank you very much for the info.

Seriously consider doing some transition training with Leigh Smith. In three days we did roughly 120 landings in my 185. Challenging but a huge confidence and safety booster.

http://www.techflying.com/leigh-smith.html


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ington6 wrote:Hi guys,
As some of you know I recently bought a 185 with the help of BigRenna. Just picked it up a few days ago. Do you 180/185 pilots have any advice on a 600 hour pilot with mostly 182 time and low tail wheel total time? My only real time has been in a Citabria and SuperCub; with about 15 hours of just touch and go's (150-200 landings?). I'm for sure a bit nervous or I wouldnt be asking this question. But I just have a lot of respect for the bird and want to minimize my chances of it biting back. "Keep it straight" Im sure someone will say. But anything else that has helped you transition? Thank you very much for the info.

I went from thousands of hours in nosewheel planes straight to a 185 with zero tailwheel experience about a year ago.

It was really tough for me. The plane was (and still is) a total beast on tailwheel gear. My insurance required 10 hrs with an instructor and I needed every bit of that, and still almost wrecked it at 15 hrs.

On floats it’s a sweetheart. Even skis or tailwheel on grass are a lot more forgiving than tires on pavement.

I got better as my feet built up some muscle memory to dance on the pedals and keep it straight. Takes some serious getting used to in gusty crosswinds.

About 50 hrs in it on tailwheel gear and I’m still a little afraid of it in gusty crosswinds.

With all that said, it’s an awesome airplane and lots of fun.

Get some dual instruction with an experienced 185 instructor. Based on your stated experience, you are not insurance, and the Internet is NOT the place to learn how to fly a 185.

Seriously….get some dual.

MTV

One other thing is, be ready for a go around if you start to lose control on landing. With one or two people in it, and nothing else, you will be trimmed around full nose up on short final.

Adding full power in this condition can save you from losing control on landing, but there’s no time to trim down, and it takes a ton of force to hold the nose down with the yoke. Like almost everything my left arm has.

Mike, totally agree with you. Im just not sure what you mean by "Based on your stated experience, you are not insurance". I do have insurance and Im required to receive 10 hours dual before solo. Ill probably end up doing 10-15. Im was just hoping for some nice friendly advice from the forum community, not trying to learn to fly a 185 from a keyboard.

Thanks for the tip on Leigh! I'm planning on flying with Greg also. Would it be smart to stick to grass for the first X hours?

Good thought on the quick go around. Ive never done one in a TW plane. Normally if I have a bounce Ill just turn it into a three point but thats on the little planes. Thanks

Landing is easy, real pilots learn how to fly a GA

I definitely recommend getting a bunch of dual with an experienced instructor if possible. With ten hours of tailwheel time going in to a skywagon, you are asking for it in my opinion. This is not nearly enough time to develop the unconscious competence necessary to keep things from going sideways, much less saving things after they have begun to go sideways.

Be cautious of trimming away all of the forces during a low speed approach on final. If you are trimmed way aft with full flaps and execute a full power go around, the plane will become surprisingly difficult to control. You can usually get away with partial power and progressive reconfiguration while adding power, but my preferred technique is to trim relatively neutral and rely on your muscles to pitch for a nice low airspeed and maintain landing attitude through the flare. Once down, you can relieve the back-pressure and pin the mains as the speed bleeds off and the tail settles.

Also, most skywagons are pretty nose-heavy. This can mean that with just one or two of the forward seats occupied, an actual full-stall three-point landing can be nearly impossible. I keep 40 lbs of tools, water and survival gear in a duffel bag at the back of the aft baggage and it helps a lot with the forward cg landing characteristics.

Congratulations on the purchase and stay humble.

Good advice here. You’ll do fine. I’ll get piled on I’m sure, however I found the 180-185 a painless transition from a Supercub. A good instructor makes all the difference. Find one that flies ag planes for a living if you can.

I don’t have Bob Hoover genes, and I’d rather fly a Wagon than a cub any day.

I only have about 200-250 hrs in 180/185 and another 800 or so in 170's so I am far from an expert. My advise is don't do touch and go landings till you get good at it. I do stop and goes if runway length and traffic allow or taxi backs. As the airplane slows down the decreasing stabilizing effect of the vertical stabilizer and the force generated by the rudder to control direction becomes a factor. If you are doing touch and goes you never get the feel for using full deflection of the rudder and possibly brake to control the airplane. There is a reason the FAA requires full stop landings for required currency in tail wheel airplanes and allows touch and goes in nose gear airplanes. In addition there is the increased risk of loss of control while re configuring the flaps and trim for the next takeoff. I am not saying that a pilot doesn't need the skills to be capable and competent to do touch and goes because they should but there is more to landing a tail wheel airplane than just the touch down. One last thought, for cross wind practice if your home base doesn't have crossing runways so you can practice until it gets too windy and them make a nice safe landing into the wind when you reach your or the airplanes limit, fly to another airport where you will land with the cross wind and then can return home. Practice the cross wind takeoffs also, people also loose control of these airplanes taking off. You know the wind is blowing when you start with full rudder deflection and need a little brake to control the airplane as you slowly feed in throttle and build airspeed. Sorry for the long post.

2 cents worth from an old guy,

Tim

All super good insight. Thanks for the long post, Tim.

If nothing else, an entertaining read:

https://backcountrypilot.org/knowledge- ... cessna-185

mtv wrote:Get some dual instruction with an experienced 185 instructor. Based on your stated experience, you are not insurance, and the Internet is NOT the place to learn how to fly a 185.

Seriously….get some dual.

MTV

This sums it up in my book.

My advice for things to make sure you know how to do when working with your instructor:
* If flying in areas with chunky winds, get really proficient at wheel landings. You need to know how to reduce the angle on the wings to stop them from generating lift and sticking the plane to the ground.
* Practice the procedure of a go around up at altitude with full flaps and trim all the way aft. See why it is a mistake to go from full flaps and trim aft to full throttle and immediately raising flaps to 20 deg. This works fine in a 172, but not so well in the 185. You will be pushing so hard that you will triple check your seat safety stop the next time you go flying. You will also find out if your trim has enough freedom for you to actually roll the trim forward. Some trim systems will get very tight with all the pressure on the horizontal and that is a very poor time to figure out that you can't actually roll the trim forward.
* Practice with a different sequence of trim and flaps on the go around to find what works best for you. For me, I first add power to arrest the sink, then immediately start rolling the trim forward 10 times. It doesn't take that long, but it guarantees that I won't stall the plane when I raise the flaps from 40 to 20 degrees.
* Make sure you know how to be aggressive on the brakes if needed, and this also means the differential use of brakes to control direction. Sometimes you need to use brakes to keep everything straight.
* Oh, and one more important one, if flying in areas with chunky winds, get really proficient at wheel landings.
* Yet one more...don't take any flying advice from the internet.

By the way, the go around maneuver is particularly important when you and your instructor are flying together or when you only have you and one passenger in the front because your CG will be forward. It is amazing how differently the airplane behaves when you are heavy and the CG is further aft. Load up the plane and go fly with your instructor at gross weight. You will be better off for doing that. Don't fill up the plane with your entire family and baggage without having practiced it first. Practice your approaches, landings and go arounds heavy. Different animal.

ington6 wrote:Mike, totally agree with you. Im just not sure what you mean by "Based on your stated experience, you are not insurance". I do have insurance and Im required to receive 10 hours dual before solo. Ill probably end up doing 10-15. Im was just hoping for some nice friendly advice from the forum community, not trying to learn to fly a 185 from a keyboard.

Thanks for the tip on Leigh! I'm planning on flying with Greg also. Would it be smart to stick to grass for the first X hours?

You don’t have insurance to solo. You’re not fully insured until you complete the required checkout…..until then, the instructor is insured.

MTV

No one has discussed maintenance...make sure the bird is properly aligned. Poor alignment can make a wagon fun to wrestle.

Make sure the tailwheel steering is working right. If it isn't, the wagon can be fun to wrestle.

Make sure the rudder rigging is right, if it isn't, the wagon can be fun to wrestle.

TW lock...use it. There is literally no down side.

Dynamic proactive rudder (walk the rudder pedals) is the only way to prevent the more weight behind the gear from trying to come around. Find an instructor who will teach you that. If, however, you don't walk the rudder pedals on taxi, takeoff, short final, touchdown, and roll out every time, you need lots and lots of practice recovery from ground loop. Tail waggers ground loop as well as wing waggers. It happens when they forget to walk the rudder to bracket (insist on) the target between their toes.

To the OP: I’m glad to learn you’re getting some dual. I hope it’s with someone who is a very experienced 185 instructor.

A recurring theme in these airplanes is the ugly full flap/full power go around with the airplane trimmed full (or close) nose up.

Here’s the set up: You’re flying a low power (doesn’t have to be idle) approach to land with full flaps (40 degrees) and two people in plane (ie: forward CG). You trim the plane to fly hands off….so you don’t have to carry any control pressure in the descent.

Now a (simulated) horse/deer/pickup truck enters the runway in the TDZ.

Time for go around…..so, full power, and as Squash and others have noted, suddenly, that nose pitches up and you have to PUSH forward on that yoke harder than you’ve ever pushed on an aircraft’s controls. With both hands.

So, you’re able to prevent the stall, but how to get out of this coffin corner? Remove one hand to move trim/reduce power (reduce power in go around? Not my idea of a good plan) or reduce flaps can result in serious arm wrestling with that left arm…..NOT fun.

My solution: Instead of trimming the plane for a fingertip pressure during the glide, I reach down, grab the trim wheel at its aft end and roll it forward two good shots. Now, I’m having to hold back pressure in the glide, but NOW if I need to go around, I push up full power, and still have to push, but MUCH less that with full nose down trim.

And, it’s easy to use the right hand to reduce flaps, move trim more, etc.

The 180/185 have a VERY powerful trim system: the trimmable stabilizer. It’s a great trim system, but it’s strong. Don’t fight it.

And, BTW, a side benefit to approaching with some nose down trim set? What most of us REALLY want to do at the touch in any t/w plane is…..relax. So, on approach, I’m holding back pressure, and as I touch, I relax that backpressure. Plane rolls slightly forward, pinning the wheels in a nice wheel landing, and after a tenth of a second or so of relaxation, I think….”oh, yeah, time to push that yoke! And the wheel landing is mastered.

I’ve heard “Skywagon experts” argue you should NEVER use full flaps, because of the pitch up on go around, or argue to never use full power on go around….or both. Duh!!

Learn to fly the plane, and to use ALL it’s tools. You’ll love it.

Finally, an old friend owned a Pitts Special for many years. Then he bought a Sukhoi SU-26. I asked him how the planes differed in flight. His response was “The Pitts is like a petite debutante ballerina…..you handle her smoothly and gently and she’s a joy. The SU-26 is more like a biker bitch…she prefers to be handled kinda rough and responds well to a bit of force.” I think the comparison probably fits the comparison of a Cub and 185. In the 185, just make the plane do what you want it to….

MTV

Squash wrote:

mtv wrote:Get some dual instruction with an experienced 185 instructor. Based on your stated experience, you are not insurance, and the Internet is NOT the place to learn how to fly a 185.

Seriously….get some dual.

MTV

This sums it up in my book.

My advice for things to make sure you know how to do when working with your instructor:
* If flying in areas with chunky winds, get really proficient at wheel landings. You need to know how to reduce the angle on the wings to stop them from generating lift and sticking the plane to the ground.
* Practice the procedure of a go around up at altitude with full flaps and trim all the way aft. See why it is a mistake to go from full flaps and trim aft to full throttle and immediately raising flaps to 20 deg. This works fine in a 172, but not so well in the 185. You will be pushing so hard that you will triple check your seat safety stop the next time you go flying. You will also find out if your trim has enough freedom for you to actually roll the trim forward. Some trim systems will get very tight with all the pressure on the horizontal and that is a very poor time to figure out that you can't actually roll the trim forward.
* Practice with a different sequence of trim and flaps on the go around to find what works best for you. For me, I first add power to arrest the sink, then immediately start rolling the trim forward 10 times. It doesn't take that long, but it guarantees that I won't stall the plane when I raise the flaps from 40 to 20 degrees.
* Make sure you know how to be aggressive on the brakes if needed, and this also means the differential use of brakes to control direction. Sometimes you need to use brakes to keep everything straight.
* Oh, and one more important one, if flying in areas with chunky winds, get really proficient at wheel landings.
* Yet one more...don't take any flying advice from the internet.

Squash nailed it! With no tailwheel experience plan on at least 25 hours. Ya, that may sound like a lot but plan on it. Get some real instruction in it from someone who knows ALL aspects of the 185. I would suggest someone like MTV (Mike Vivion). What you are trying to accomplish is very “doable” but you have to go about it with the right frame of mind. Don't rush it and don't skimp on hiring the right instructor, it will be money well spent. If you have to buy an airline ticket to get them to your place and put them up in a hotel just do it. There are a lot of bent 180/185’s from owners not taking the check out serious.

Kurt
Multiple 180/185 owner