Hello all. I have lurked here for years soaking up information but this is my first time posting. I’m grateful for the resource of collective experience and would appreciate your objective insight. My situation-

I have owned a straight tail 172 for 13 years. Good O-300 (mid time), 50amp alternator conversion, sealed battery. No vacuum system to speak of. Very straight and clean/corrosion free airframe. It has its normal squawks- fuel indicators, all the vacuum powered gauges are on strike, oil temp and pressure gauges work drunkenly, etc. It’s been a great aircraft and is overdue for some updates. I have the opportunity to do a good amount of trade work with my avionics shop. This saves us both enough money that I can step outside of the normal “just enough to stay legal/functional” mentality and actually build a panel for the long term.

The mission scope of this aircraft is to be a primary IFR trainer and general instruction aircraft to offset the incurred cost until I have acquired the parts necessary to do the tailwheel and engine conversion and make it my backcountry taxi for life. Then use it to train a few close friends for primary tailwheel experience.

I am looking for advice on the “MUST HAVES” that I should install while I am building the panel, broken in to a few different categories. I have narrowed it down to the following options:

GPS-
used Garmin 430w or 530w vs a new GTN-650.

Gauges-
Putting 2 new G5 gauges in place of the horizon and DG. This is the most cost effective way to solve my vacuum issues reliably until I do an IO-360 engine conversion once I’ve timed out this
engine. I like the fact that they are battery backup as I have had the old generator go out enough times over the mountains to last a lifetime.

Radio stack-
Ideally changing to center stack for accessibility and flight training.
I am almost certain this will require me to change to the “Y” style yoke assembly but I have yet to determine that definitively.

Garmin GMA 345 audio panel

Transponder- yet to be determined

Radio- I currently have on older icom that works fine but am not opposed to upgrading.

EIS-
JPI 930 ecm vs a Garmin EIS

I am definitely open to other options as well. My main priority is to eliminate the unreliable engine/fuel gauges. Ideally without having to purchase a different one again when I convert from the 6 cylinder to the 4 cylinder in the near future.


I will certainly be having a new aluminium panel laser cut and etched for it. Mine is Swiss cheese at this point. I would like to replace all the fuses with breakers and ideally rearrange them to just under the eyebrow where they are more accessible to both pilots in an emergency. This is new territory to me and any insight on layout, legality, or calling me out for doing something stupid would be welcomed.

I am also trying to decide if it’s dumb or legal to build the panel with a hinge at the bottom, just above the throttle/mixture controls for avionics/annual accessibility with a couple of quarter turns across the eyebrow.

Considering an angle of attack indicator as it just seems like good insurance for both a bush plane and a primary trainer. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Again I appreciate any insight you have to offer. Thank you in advance.

Unless your plane already has a new interior and paint and lots of sentimental value. i wouldn't dump that kind of money into it.

25K in avionics
45K for a 180hp conversion


After upgrades maybe a 55K airplane and still only a 172. Honestly a 182 would have better resale and is a better ifr platform. Plus more performance


yikes, just saw the tailwheel conversion plan........................

X2-what he said-you will spend even more than what he posted in the end. Fly what you have for a while and sell it. Buy a 182 or 180 that someone else went upside down with. Even 180 hp in a 172 is a marginal bush airplane. -just my 2 cents

Gotta say, I agree with Mark. You’re embarking on a path where you could easily spend close to $100K above what you have invested now, with the possibility of getting back about 20-40¢ of every dollar you spend when you eventually sell the plane. And you WILL eventually sell the plane someday... Far better to either a) enjoy the plane as is or with minor upgrades, or b) sell it and buy the IFR-certified 182/180 or 172/170 of your dreams. Plan B has the advantage that it’s the “other guy” who spent all that money upgrading the plane, and you get to buy at a huge discount...

My challenge is The cheapest 180 I can find is an early model for $70k. I would not be against a 170 but it can’t make any money for me as a nosewheel primary trainer while I’m working overseas. A nosewheel, IFR 172 I have no trouble finding renters/leasebacks for and not being stressed about. It’s such an easy aircraft to fly and an open renter insurance policy is less than $1400 a year.

I am currently into my 172 for next to nothing. I took it in on trade. If I sell it as is I might get $22k out of it. So I’m still $50k from a timed out early 180. I would love one. I just can’t afford one.

My (possibly flawed) logic is that if I trade labor for a legitimate IFR panel I can rent the plane out as a IFR trainer @ $100 an hour dry and my panel investment is paid off in 240-300 rental hours. But realistically the money I take in on it would get set aside for a new motor when I time out this one since the trade work will already be done for the instruments.

With the Chinese buying continental and upping prices it’s almost even money to do the lycoming swap as opposed to rebuilding my 300 so doing 180hp is a no brainer in a year or two.

Ironically the reason this came up is while looking for a school to finish my long overdue IFR rating in I kept hitting a wall of them being at 120% of student capacity and long waiting times for rental aircraft. Once I mentioned that I owned an aircraft the conversation changed to - “would you be interested in doing a leaseback with us with your aircraft”


I’m not against keeping this airframe as a nosewheel moneymaker and finding a 170, early 180, or already converted 172 and putting that airframe/engine together either. I just can’t seem to find anything that is in the range I can afford. So I’m looking at a creative approach.

I’m an A&P so my labor costs are non existent other than paying my IA. My avionics guy will let me do my own install under his supervision so my trade value is straight parts. Normally I would dissuade anyone from polishing a turd. But it’s a turd I have. If I put $24k into a panel today I would be into the plane for $26k with a fresh annual and the new alternator.

So assuming it was a 170 with no panel at all. How would you set it up?

I recently updated the avionics on a Warrior which I lease to a flying school. I only swapped a BK-155 for a Garmin GNC255, and kept the second BK-155. I also swapped an INOP Apollo GX-60 for a secondhand KLN94. The aircraft now has PBNB2 capability plus IFR GNSS and .833khz, both required in Europe for IFR. The avionics cost me $7k. The aircraft has an STEC-20 which is linked to the GPS, and also Mode S.

In short I would suggest only getting either a Garmin 155 or KLN94 or 90B for a couple of AMUs. You don’t need the expense of an .833khz.

The G5 from Garmin might be worthwhile to supplement the Venturi

If insurance is really that cheap for a lease-back and there is that much demand to rent it for an ifr trainer - Might be worthwhile to do a decent panel. At least as an ifr trainer your not getting the wear and tear of pure primary students. Must be a far different situation down there on the rental scene. Up here they have a hard time renting N series even for primary training. Everyone wants the restarts. The N's hourly rates are discounted to keep them active. An old straight tail 145hp would never make it in a flight school up here unless the rate was so low for the time builders to take cross country. Just not the plane an IFR student would want to rent. No matter whats in the panel, unless as i said it was rented dirt cheap.

Seems like a lot of the "IFR trainers" I see are straight out of the 1970's.
Dual VORs (one with glideslope), ADF, maybe DME, audio panel (or just toggle switches), a mode C transponder, and intercom.
I'd say buy & install some of that stuff, that someone else has ripped out of their airplane for an upgrade.

You say "no vacuum system to speak of", so it probably has venturi's?
Those are unbreakable unless you knock them off the airplane, so I'd just get the gyro's OH'd.
Fix or replace the wonky oil temp /oil pressure gauges.
Add a Hobbs meter.
Viola, you have a primary / IFR trainer.

I don't see the point of pimping it out with all the hot shit to just be a leaseback.
Someone wants fancy, they're gonna rent a next-gen 172 with all the G1000 stuff anyway.
Save that upgrade money, add it to the revenue your leaseback will generate,
( which I would guess will NOT be as much as you think and as the FBO says),
then eventually buy the bush plane of your dreams.

Put a Dynon system and a GNS 650 in it. It will be the busiest airplane on the line until others catch up!

RockHopper wrote:Even 180 hp in a 172 is a marginal bush airplane. -just my 2 cents

Agree....

Better to save the money and get something with more capability. That is huge money to pour in, you won't see it come back again.

Decisions, decisions, decisions. I love to spend others' money--oh wait, I love to spend my own, too.

I have an airplane that I really like, a Lycoming 180hp CS-equipped 63 P172D. It had the old style panel--center stack not possible, so we're talking similarities here. When the primary gyros each failed, I replaced them with modern gyros, and my IA reconfigured the panel from the Cessna "throw it at the panel and see where it sticks" configuration to today's more common 6 pack--an easy switch.

Initially I had 2 Narco navcoms. I later added a King ADF--kind of silly today, but at the time it made sense. Then a few years ago, I replaced one of the navcoms with a new (last one made, I think) 430W. At the same time, I upgraded the audio panel to a PS Engineering 6000B.

A couple of years ago, I had the AI replaced with a Sandia Quattro, which is similar to a G5--Garmin hadn't come out with the G5 yet, or I might have gone with it. But I've been very happy with the Quattro.

At the same time that I had the Quattro installed, I replaced the Narco transponder with a Bendix King KT74, which gives me ADS-B Out.

I fly occasionally in IMC, so long as there's no concern about icing--172s aren't famous for being able to carry much ice. My airplane is a very pleasant one to fly in IMC--pretty stable, very comfortable, even without an autopilot. In the 850 or so hours I've flown it in the last 14 years, I have probably 50 hours of actual IMC.

Quite honestly, though, there is no way I can justify economically all that I've had done to my airplane. If I leased it out as an IFR trainer (or as any trainer), I could never recover what I've spent, and when it gets sold over my dead body, it'll go for much less than I have into it. I've done all that because it's mine, I really like it, and I want it to be as I want it to be. That, incidentally, eliminates it as a rental--renters are too hard on airplanes, and I like mine too much.

Incidentally, I looked at the conversion of the yoke assemblies to see if it made sense. It doesn't, to me. Parts alone when I looked at it 12 years ago were $1600, plus a whole lot of labor to make the conversion. You say you can do that work yourself, but still, is it worth it? I have no problem using my radios, stacked as they are, with the audio panel stacked above the 430W in the center and the transponder stacked above the navcom to the right of center. The ADF is mounted below all of that.

So I couldn't recommend that you do what I've done. It's just not economically justifiable.

Cary

There is no financial justification for this kind of upgrade to this kind of airplane. It just doesn't exist. That said, I have another way of looking at it: Will you get value in terms of personal use and entertainment over time such that the delta between now and later sale are OK to you?

These old airplanes have simple systems. They don't cost a lot to buy, but everyone here is right - if you're trying to come out sort-of on top of the math, buy a newer plane or buy it after someone else has done the work. Of course this approach has drawbacks; the older planes have certain characteristics that make them desirable, especially for off-airport work. You're stuck with however the other guy did it. And so on.

My take is that if you reasonably expect to have the plane for a while to come and the upgrades will enhance its utility in some way, then it might actually make sense. The difference between new vs used avionics in a given feature set is surprisingly small as well. A 430W for $7000-7500 vs a GTN650 for $10k, an SL30 for $2500 vs a GNC255A for $3800, and so on. If you're upgrading those components for whatever reason anyway, then consider that over the course of a long ownership period, a few grand more now won't really matter. What could matter a lot is getting support on old gear that's likely to start depreciating more rapidly at some point.

In my own project, I bought an old 182 cheap. It's a great plane that is needing more work sooner than I anticipated, but ultimately I'm still going to do a total systems upgrade. It'll end up being an amazing airplane with more money in it than I'll ever get back out, but my hope is that over time I will perceive enough added value from the upgrades that I end up personally OK with things. This is a subjective, emotional sort of mathematics, based less in rational equations and more in "this is what I want to do".

A couple other thoughts that should weigh in though: First, find ways to do labor yourself. Maybe you aren't soldering the harnesses and such, but there is no reason you can't mount equipment and run wiring, do basic assembly-type work, and so on. Your A&P needs to be willing to sign off on this, but your time is likely not $85/hr like theirs is. This adds up extremely quickly on a large project.

Second, you need to consider insurance. They will look at Vref and let you pad it up to a certain amount; any higher might be allowed with underwriter approval, but that's an "if". Doesn't matter what you put in the plane, there is a cap to insurability. Insurance is there you make you whole to a point but it's not a limitless bucket, and the days of "insure my ancient 172 for $100k" are gone. Think this through, because if something happens you may end up chucking a bunch of money down the drain in upgrades they will not reimburse you for.