The only close encounters with other aircraft I have had have been on base to final. There were only two that were close enough to make a lasting impression on me. Both happened when teaching in high wing tandem trainers. In both cases I took the controls and steepened the descending turn to turn inside the centerline extended.

While high wing airplanes are popular trainers, it is difficult to see where we are going in a turn through a down wing. It is easier in a steep descending turn because front seaters can look up through the top of the windscreen. This blind turn problem is one of the reasons nearly all Ag planes are low wing.

Many more of my hours were either spraying or patrolling pipeline. While staying low and giving way to all other aircraft and avoiding the centerline extended on finals of less than one quarter mile, I had no close encounters with other aircraft.

There are many safety advantages of the steep descending, or finishing portion of the energy management turn. Better acquisition of the target I have already mentioned. The steep turn also has the high wing down blocking the target for a much shorter time.

A very important concern, in steep descending or energy management turns, is to use plenty of rudder. We need to push the nose around both to get it down and to complete the turn quickly. Holding back pressure to get steep turn is going to load the wing and become dangerous. Slipping turns (not enough rudder) take longer than coordinated turns and much longer than skidding turns (too much rudder.)

As an Ag instructor, I can guarantee you that most pilots let the nose drag around in a slip in steep turns. It is not their fault. They have been taught not to turn steeply and have little quality experience with steep energy management or descending turns.

contactflying wrote:The only close encounters with other aircraft I have had have been on base to final. There were only two that were close enough to make a lasting impression on me. Both happened when teaching in high wing tandem trainers. In both cases I took the controls and steepened the descending turn to turn inside the centerline extended.

While high wing airplanes are popular trainers, it is difficult to see where we are going in a turn through a down wing. It is easier in a steep descending turn because front seaters can look up through the top of the windscreen. This blind turn problem is one of the reasons nearly all Ag planes are low wing.

Many more of my hours were either spraying or patrolling pipeline. While staying low and giving way to all other aircraft and avoiding the centerline extended on finals of less than one quarter mile, I had no close encounters with other aircraft.

There are many safety advantages of the steep descending, or finishing portion of the energy management turn. Better acquisition of the target I have already mentioned. The steep turn also has the high wing down blocking the target for a much shorter time.

A very important concern, in steep descending or energy management turns, is to use plenty of rudder. We need to push the nose around both to get it down and to complete the turn quickly. Holding back pressure to get steep turn is going to load the wing and become dangerous. Slipping turns (not enough rudder) take longer than coordinated turns and much longer than skidding turns (too much rudder.)

As an Ag instructor, I can guarantee you that most pilots let the nose drag around in a slip in steep turns. It is not their fault. They have been taught not to turn steeply and have little quality experience with steep energy management or descending turns.

I always enjoy your insight. Thank you!

You are most welcome. As my wife says, I like to hear myself talk.

Jim,
I am reading your book at this time.....Sounds very similar.
I have found when teaching medicine to nurses, pa's and newer doctors than myself, I repeat a lot of the same things. It appears you have to do the same thing!
I must come fly with you soon to unlearn my instrument flying that I have been taught as you say most general aviation pilots have been. I did get my tail drager cert in a Stearman and I think the instructor was trying to convey the tight turn, letting the nose fall with plenty of rudder technique you are discussing but I just don't think he was conveying it quite like you do.

The Stearman was a good rudder usage trainer because it required a lot of rudder movement in any turn. It pulled a lot of air, but a 450 hp P&W pulled it just fine. Even with the hopper lip to make the top flat for the lid, it would only hold 200 gallons. It was the only overpowered airplane I ever flew.

Come on up to 2H2 when you get a chance . We'll do some flying. Also Slowmover is an instructor now and in Little Rock. He knows most of my stuff.

In a long AOPA video on the danger of skidding turns I learned something I have not yet considered. They pointed out that the skid in a descending turn causes the nose to appear to be pitched down more than in a coordinated descending turn. This is what is causing pilots to pull further back on the stick.

As I always allow and teach the nose should go down naturally in all non-IFR turns, seeing all ground and no horizon in steep turns is normal. I couldn't find CFOT's videos of energy management turns in his Champ, but most of you guys know how to do that. Observe that there is no visible horizon in those steep energy management turns.

This is something I need to emphasize more. We are using rudder to keep the nose moving appropriate to the angle of bank and get the turn onto target before vertical space is used up. Pilots need to get comfortable with no horizon in steep energy management turns, with letting the nose go down naturally.

In the AOPA video they had the Cessna turn back toward the mountain in order to stop skidding even after they had admitted that the wing is stalled by the pilot pulling back on the stick. They actually insisted that he level the nose. This obsession with level turns and maintaining altitude is killing pilots. He should have continued the turn toward lower terrain and quit pulling back on the stick. The skid would have helped him miss the mountain if he had not been pulling back on the stick.

contactflying wrote:In a long AOPA video on the danger of skidding turns I learned something I have not yet considered. They pointed out that the skid in a descending turn causes the nose to appear to be pitched down more than in a coordinated descending turn. This is what is causing pilots to pull further back on the stick.

Do you have a link to the video? Sounds interesting.

I was watching either 8GCBC video or UBCP Smiley Creek video and the AOPA video just showed up available to click the picture. It used a simulation of the C-172 and covered various places where skidding turns caused accidents. In all the pilot pulled back on the stick rather than allowing the nose to go down naturally. The steeper the turn, the further the nose goes down. The slower airspeed, the further the nose goes down. I am reluctant to talk about taking a bit of the tuck out because the airplane wants to return quickly to trimmed airspeed. I will try to make pilots more comfortable with the significant pitch down when we don't pull back at all. That is a much safer energy management turn, but airspeed increases rapidly.

Regardless, with the nose well down neither full slip nor full skid will stall the airplane. Hanging the nose up on the horizon, level turn, is dangerous when too low to recover from a stall.

Thanks Jim . Keep on preaching Brother .

I have spent a couple of hours unsuccessfully looking for the video. In the many base to final turn videos I watched I saw another problem. The base to final turn is being made at least a mile and usually more than a mile out in these videos. From that, for me, extreme distance the target (numbers) is at a very slight angle down. Even from 200' and a quarter mile out the glide angle is steeper. A mile or more out is another reason pilots don't want to let the nose go down naturally in this turn.

To better emphasize having the nose well down in the energy management turn, think about the gun run. We gunnys understood that making the cone of fire as nearly a circle increases the effect of both rockets and machine gun fire. Sixty degrees pitch down really constricts the elongation of the cone of fire. Not that we need to get that slow, bank that much, and allow the nose to pitch down that much in a turn to final or a turn to observe an animal or whatever. However, trading airspeed for altitude wings level will safely get us slow, banking to acquire the target may cause steep bank, and finally allowing the nose to go down naturally and applying enough rudder to get quite a bit of rate of turn for that much bank will get the nose down such that pushing the nose a bit more with rudder (skid) will not cause stall or spin.

As MTV points out, the passengers may not prefer completely safe turns and thus fatalities result. From a quarter mile out and 200' AGL there is a lot of vertical space available. From a mile or more out and 1,000' AGL there is a world of vertical space available. So let the nose go down naturally and then take a bit of the tuck out. Ask, what does the airplane want to do?

When banked 45 degrees or steeper, rudder in the direction of turn helps by moving the nose as much down as sideways. Skidding is not the problem. Pulling back on the stick is the problem. Most experienced Commercial pilots who change careers to Ag allow the nose to drag around, a slip, until gaining low altitude experience. Up high, turning to headings rather than targets, we don't notice how incredibly slow our rate of turn. Getting the nose around and onto target as in base to final turn is a legitimate concern. Maintaining altitude and seeing the horizon in the turn is not.

I insist that all my students watch this video. It's old and crusty but Wayne lays it out
It helps cure people's confusion that slips and skids are just two flavors of the same thing. Not understanding will kill you. I slip the s*** out of my citabria on base to final during a short approach.
I also fly (and teach) to watch out over the nose during those pattern turns, and to NOT let the nose come up. I prefer it well below the horizon, keeping that wing unloaded. If the airspeed is high when you roll wings level it's easy to fix.
I put quite a bit of time in the BT-13 and it was always eager to kill me in the pattern if I ignored the above. The first and only clue it was about to bite you was the visual cue of rapidly increasing sink rate, so "eyes outside!" was the key.

Quick Google search for "AOPA base-to-final" found this video: https://asivideos.aopa.org/detail/video ... final-turn

Hopefully, that's the one to which Jim (ContactFlying) was referring.

aftCG wrote:I insist that all my students watch this video. It's old and crusty but Wayne lays it out

It helps cure people's confusion that slips and skids are just two flavors of the same thing. Not understanding will kill you. I slip the s*** out of my citabria on base to final during a short approach.
I also fly (and teach) to watch out over the nose during those pattern turns, and to NOT let the nose come up. I prefer it well below the horizon, keeping that wing unloaded. If the airspeed is high when you roll wings level it's easy to fix.
I put quite a bit of time in the BT-13 and it was always eager to kill me in the pattern if I ignored the above. The first and only clue it was about to bite you was the visual cue of rapidly increasing sink rate, so "eyes outside!" was the key.

Video is not working for me - but sounds like a good one do you have the direct link?

No Jim, that's not the one. I did watch it among many, many others. It is good that "don't pull back on the stick" occasionally comes up. Also the almost taboo go ahead and bank as necessary. Unfortunately, "use wind management" to be able to make base to final an upwind rather than dangerous downwind turn never comes up. This one is totally taboo, I guess. Patience is good judgement with weather, but patience with traffic not so much. Even if we give way or there is no traffic, how can it be so awkward to allow wind to help rather than hurt our maneuvering around the airport. And not just uncontrolled, tower will let you make right turns into a 40 knot left crosswind at a single runway airport.

AftCG, I am rural and don't have enough computer umph to get your video to go.

Another solution to the downwind base to final occurred to me, one that should not violate the we gotta turn left no mater what set. Like the teardrop procedure turn to final IFR, we could just make a gradual turn through the centerline extended and back toward the numbers at less crosswind component. An apparent brisk walk rate of closure or any power pitch approach would bring us to the numbers in an angle across heading. In strong crosswind, most little airplanes can easily get stopped in the 1,000 feet between the downwind corner of the runway and the upwind big airplane touchdown zone marking.

Thanks aftCG. You must have tweaked the Turn Smart Wayne Hanley video. It worked this time. I have seen it before and agree that it is the best. He is absolutely concise and correct in everything he points out. Two big points that fail to come up in the other videos. First the wing will not stall unloaded so don't pull back to start and release back pressure if in trouble. Second the wing will not spin coordinated so push the rudder the other way (step on the ball but don't look) if in trouble. Wayne. like most crop dusters, understands the primacy of rudder in keeping, or getting, the wing level because of adverse yaw problems with aileron.

Compare that with the APSTRAINING.com-Skidded Turn video. I couldn't believe what was expected of pilots and even accepted as general practice. First poor wind management to make downwind turns by choice near the ground. Second it was expected that the pilot would have a bank angle limitation. When skidding to acquire the target while pulling back on the stick, the pilot is expected to use aileron not rudder to prevent the increase in bank skidding causes. At no point in this video is the pilot admonished to unload the wing and use the rudder as aggressively as necessary to level the wing. It absolutely false that rudder cannot cause turn. It can and does increase rate of turn. This technique must, however, be used with the nose well down and backpressure on the stick released.

We have to hold the FAA and training developers accountable for cya thinking in analysis of problems. Self inflicted has resulted with obsessive left turns in pattern, limited bank, and use of coordinated control meaning mostly aileron in wing leveling. We just don't have time for these self inflicted problems in low altitude work. And yes, as Wayne says, pushing turns around from 30 second turns to 20 second turns (Pawnee not Air Tractor) does not gain much time in a days work. Many not crop duster or non pipeline pilots slip around every steep turn including base to final. Crop dusters should not be the only pilots taught safe maneuvering flight techniques.

While Wayne Handley's Turn Smart video gets everything absolutely correct, I would emphasize that when crop dusting or conducting any maneuvering flight including in the pattern we are not fully deflecting the controls. We use the elevator only to get the pitch up wings level desired but not stall (we don't pitch up at all without zoom reserve in airspeed), we use rudder to start the turn while releasing all elevator pull and then coordinate with aileron to bank at whatever bank angle will complete the turn to target in the vertical space available, we can use rudder to safely skid a bit with the nose well down, we start rudder and emphasize rudder in the coordinated control to get the wing level before pull up. We use elevator to pull up only after levelling the wing.

Anyway, unlike aerobatic full deflection of controls to stall quickly, roll quickly, etc, we only use the controls to the extent necessary to get the airplane to go where we want to go safely. As Wayne says, we do not have the altitude for safety as in aerobatics. So while spraying or maneuvering aggressively at low altitude looks like aerobatics, it is an entirely different paradyme.

The guy who was cranking the Air Tractor around much too quickly was not allowing enough time, after releasing back pressure from the pitch up, for the nose to go down before banking aggressively. Both elevator release and rudder to start the turn and aileron to bank happen at the same time, but we don't want the bank to come in well ahead of the nose going down naturally.

Again, the dangerous aspect of the skidded base to final turn is holding the nose up on the horizon rather than allowing the nose to go down as designed for safety. And there are many smart turns Ag pilots make on a regular basis to miss things using rudder only with the nose well down or in low ground effect. Turn smart by leading rudder, coordinating aileron with rudder, and allowing the nose to go down naturally. A little pitch up wings level first (energy management turn) is helpful. Limiting bank is not always smart and insisting on level, altitude maintaining, turns are only smart when high enough to recover from inadvertent stall.

……

Ya know.... I recently have found myself in a position of working with a couple aspiring ag pilot types and recommended turn smart to one of them. But after watching it again for the umpteenth time, I just can't help but feeling like;

A) anybody who has made it through the CPL should already know this stuff, and

B) I feel like Wayne is putting too much emphaaaasis on the wrong sylaaaable.

I mean we all know the goal is to not shut the wing down while all crossed up right? But what's really the more desired path here? Falling out of the sky like a lawn dart while straight as an arrow, or actually flying, while sliding sideways? I know for me that's a no brainer... I get in an airplane with the intention of flying, and I'll take one flying half cocked from here to Kalamazoo over one giving up the ghost (albeit in a straight line) every time.

Most less than uber proficient pilots I know still need a ball in the plane to absolutely know they're straight (as if the ball couldn't be glued in less than true ) But even an orangutang can be taught to just turn the death grip loose.... I'd take a yarn over a ball any day, but I'd take not letting her come un hooked over needing to be straight over either. And this is coming from a guy who gets them all but unhooked on almost every turn many, many times a night...

My definition of the 'smart turn' is the one that doesn't include an unplanned fall, straight crooked or indifferent.

Take care, Rob