Hi. I am training in a 180K on mostly pavement. One instructor says the stock 6.00 small tires are best and won't bounce the plane as much. Second instructor says put the 8.50s back on because they absorb the energy so the landing gear won't bounce the plane. I'm very confused and would love to hear some experienced pilots give me their opinions/experiences. Thank you!

I seriously doubt there’s going to be a big difference. Which tires are you going to run on the plane? That’s what you should train on.

A question: Why is your instructor suggesting this? How much experience does this instructor have instructing in these planes? Sounds like a newbie maybe. Most experienced tailwheel CFIs wouldn’t even think of changing between those tire sizes.

MTV

Use the smaller tires if visibility over the nose is an issue for you.

I learned to fly my 185 on wheels just recently. Still learning. I started on 6.00x6. All the energy surplus went through the hard tires into the gear, and recoiled almost all of it straight back into potential energy (regained the altitude I lost in the flare )!

I noticed when I put 8.50x6, to go with my skis, that the airplane was a bit more forgiving and less likely to bounce.

I recommend starting on a cheap pair of 6.00x6 because it will highlight your mistakes instead of covering them, and there’s an increased risk of skidding a tire while you’re learning. Better to skid a cheap tire.

Learn on the gear you intend to fly it on other than changes required for seasonal operations

I would agree with mike. Several factors are involved in the "bounce" Tire size end pressure is a small part. Your plane has simple spring gear so any energy you put into it is going to want to come back out. Some will be used supporting the weight of the plane, but your gear went from nothing to a dynamic compression on landing. Low tire pressure will help some, size not so much. Being a new pilot I suspect you are landing at 10-15 mph over stall speed, full flaps, three point. With the instructor saying keep the yoke in your gut. What no one points out is that that is what you do when you want the plane to take off. High AOA with full flaps and good airspeed. You are trying to make the plane fly!! The bounce is just plane doing what it should but failing to stay airborne. because the speed is bleeding off. I could get 2-3 bounces when I started. You need to kill the lift of the wings!!! Lift the tail and stick the mains. Works with any size tire. Do a search and read posts from MTV, follow his advice. Also read up on the MAF technique.
DENNY

Most of the time what people call bounce ends up being the tail lowering when the mains touch which increases AOA causing the airplane to fly again.

mtv wrote:I seriously doubt there’s going to be a big difference. Which tires are you going to run on the plane? That’s what you should train on.

A question: Why is your instructor suggesting this? How much experience does this instructor have instructing in these planes? Sounds like a newbie maybe. Most experienced tailwheel CFIs wouldn’t even think of changing between those tire sizes.

MTV

The second instructor, which I haven't flown with yet, has a 180K and trains people in his plane or their 180. He saw my plane recently, which we will train in, and suggested I switch back to the 850s. The first instructor advised against the 850s while training with him so I had 600s installed. He flies a Mooney and trains mostly tricycle gear aircraft. Both have several thousand hours.

DENNY wrote:I would agree with mike. Several factors are involved in the "bounce" Tire size end pressure is a small part. Your plane has simple spring gear so any energy you put into it is going to want to come back out. Some will be used supporting the weight of the plane, but you gear went form nothing to a dynamic compression on landing. Low tire pressure will help some, size not so much. Being a new pilot I suspect you are landing at 10-15 mph over stall speed, full flaps, three point. With the instructor saying keep the yoke in your gut. What no one points out is that that is what you do when you want the plane to take off. High AOA with full flaps and good airspeed. You are trying to make the plane fly!! The bounce is just plane doing what it should but failing to stay airborne. because the speed is bleeding off. I could get 2-3 bounces when I started. You need to kill the lift of the wings!!! Lift the tail and stick the mains. Works with any size tire. Do a search and read posts from MTV, follow his advice. Also read up on the MAF technique.
DENNY

You're exactly right! That's precisely what the first instructor had me do. Every landing ended with the plane dropping 3-5 feet after lift was lost. He said that I was doing excellent, but I have watched enough tailwheel planes land to know that's not right. Never was taught to do a wheel landing so I don't know what a good landing feels like. I'm hoping the second instructor will be much better. Thanks so much.

Green Ice wrote:

DENNY wrote:I would agree with mike. Several factors are involved in the "bounce" Tire size end pressure is a small part. Your plane has simple spring gear so any energy you put into it is going to want to come back out. Some will be used supporting the weight of the plane, but you gear went form nothing to a dynamic compression on landing. Low tire pressure will help some, size not so much. Being a new pilot I suspect you are landing at 10-15 mph over stall speed, full flaps, three point. With the instructor saying keep the yoke in your gut. What no one points out is that that is what you do when you want the plane to take off. High AOA with full flaps and good airspeed. You are trying to make the plane fly!! The bounce is just plane doing what it should but failing to stay airborne. because the speed is bleeding off. I could get 2-3 bounces when I started. You need to kill the lift of the wings!!! Lift the tail and stick the mains. Works with any size tire. Do a search and read posts from MTV, follow his advice. Also read up on the MAF technique.
DENNY

You're exactly right! That's precisely what the first instructor had me do. Every landing ended with the plane dropping 3-5 feet after lift was lost. He said that I was doing excellent, but I have watched enough tailwheel planes land to know that's not right. Never was taught to do a wheel landing so I don't know what a good landing feels like. I'm hoping the second instructor will be much better. Thanks so much.

If your first instructor (the one who signed you off for conventional gear) didn't teach you to do wheel landings, he or she didn't do the job. And, if you're referring to the first instructor who worked with you in just this airplane, the same is true.

You should master BOTH wheel landings and three points in every airplane, unless there is some prohibition on one or the other by the manufacturer.

MTV

Sounds like you have an instructor issue and not a tire size issue.
If the instructor can’t land, or demonstrate to you how to land in both a 3 point and a wheel landing in a C180, with any size tire then you have an instructor problem.
I second reading the MAF technique on landing C180/185.
Tire size doesn’t make that much difference unless you get to the big tundra size tires on a C180. The spring gear will bounce on any tire up through a 26” Goodyear, pretty easy, especially on pavement, if you don’t manage your touchdown sink rate.
Go with the instructor test can land your airplane in all configurations AND teach you how to do it.
My two cents

I give up what is the MAF technique ??

Mapleflt wrote:I give up what is the MAF technique ??

Mission Aviation Foundation. They have for many years trained pilots who subsequently flew different types of aircraft into very challenging landing sites all over the world in support of missionary groups.

Many pilots believe that MAF “developed” the tail low wheel landing, which is what’s being referenced here. That technique has been in widespread use in Alaska for decades.

The technique makes a great deal of sense, particularly in an off airport, or rough primitive strip, but it works just as well at an international airport.

I don’t refer to it as the “MAF technique” because it’s been used for just as long in Alaska. MAF were first to “institutionalize” the technique in their training syllabus.

Whatever you call it, the tail low wheel landing is an essential tool in ANY tailwheel pilot’s toolbox.

MTV

Thanks MTV,

I wasn't making the connection at all between a landing technique and a missionary effort however I was very much aware of MAF's existence.

I was taught this technique as a young pilot many, many years ago and had never heard it referred to as anything else but a "three point landing" along with the two point "wheel landing". It's always a bit interesting to hear how these terms and colloquialism seek into the jargon.

Cheers

Mapleflt wrote:Thanks MTV,

I wasn't making the connection at all between a landing technique and a missionary effort however I was very much aware of MAF's existence.

I was taught this technique as a young pilot many, many years ago and had never heard it referred to as anything else but a "three point landing" along with the two point "wheel landing". It's always a bit interesting to hear how these terms and colloquialism seek into the jargon.

Cheers

It’s NOT a “three point landing”. The point of the exersize is to touch on mains only, but with the tailwheel a few inches from the surface, then at the touch, roll the airplane up into level attitude. This offers the “best of both worlds” : Touchdown at very slow speed (same touch speed as three point), but any residual lift on wing is killed, rudder is up in clean air where it has authority, and the pilot can see what he/she is about to roll over.

The technique works great in planes with spring gear, by reducing the energy state at touchdown, thus reducing bounce. But it works fine in most taildraggers as well.

MTV

Ok, thanks for the clarification

mtv wrote:It’s NOT a “three point landing”. The point of the exersize is to touch on mains only, but with the tailwheel a few inches from the surface, then at the touch, roll the airplane up into level attitude. This offers the “best of both worlds” : Touchdown at very slow speed (same touch speed as three point), but any residual lift on wing is killed, rudder is up in clean air where it has authority, and the pilot can see what he/she is about to roll over.

The technique works great in planes with spring gear, by reducing the energy state at touchdown, thus reducing bounce. But it works fine in most taildraggers as well.

MTV

I use this method ~95% of the time when landing my spring gear Pacer.

I was having a heck of a time with bouncing on landing when I first got the plane, then read about the tail-low wheelie and and started doing that. I've since practiced and gotten my bounces out in 3 points as well, I just prefer the tail-low wheelie since the landing speed is slow plus I get to protect my tail from wear and tear.

Mapleflt wrote:I give up what is the MAF technique ??

Bill white (of Bill White Insurance) wrote a very good article about a wheel landing technique
that he learned from the Missionary Aviation Fellowship training pilots.
There's been a couple slightly different versions of this article,
I guess it's been edited / revised over the years,
but I don't know why as the original was very good.
I wouldn't say it's necessarily gospel, but it's a good place to start.
You can google it up, but here's the crux of it:

,

A lot of times when I tail-low wheelie I don't use the brakes at all. I've got a huge runway at home to roll out on, but even with just coasting I don't have issues hitting the next turn-off.

If I'm coasting and don't plan to brake, it just takes a little more forward yoke to keep the tail up on roll-out. I do that until it starts to sag, then I ease it down with the yoke and taxi around on all 3 wheels.