Green Ice,

Stop training with the first instructor and start up with the one who actually has a 180 and trains out of it. If he is willing to risk his own plane (especially a wagon) good chance he is a competent instructor.

You don't indicate you already have a tailwheel endorsement, and since you've yet to be taught wheel landings I'm guessing you are "in the process". When I got my endorsement the training started with 3-point landings and once I was comfortable with those we moved to wheel landings- and that's fine. If you do have your endorsement and were never taught wheel landings that instructor should have his ticket pulled.

3-5 foot drop-ins I can relate to. I did my initial tail wheel training from the back seat of a Super D and for three days in a row most of my landings nearly pegged the G meter. At the end of the third day my instructor asked "I suppose you do know where the ground is?". Pretty sure I left green skid marks on the bottom (of the plane).



Dropping the plane in and bouncing back into the air more than a couple of inches means the airplane still has flying speed, nothing more. For your purposes at this point it has nothing to do with tire size.

Here is a video that illustrates this point:


And although you do want to get to where you can do tail low wheel landings I wouldn't worry about that right now, get three points and wheel landings down first.

If you are having a problem "knowing where the ground is" start by just going out and sitting in your plane- a lot- and not near any structures. Try a simulate the runway. Look to the sides and get a good picture in your mind as to how the outside looks in relation to you sitting in the plane. Try looking straight ahead and concentrating on what you see in your peripheral vision. If you are short, or put your 180 on 29's or 31's, that is quite likely nearly the only vision you'll have when in a 3-point attitude. (And yes you can safely and successfully land an airplane without being able to see straight ahead.) Then look straight ahead from close to far, get used to the perspective- especially far- that perspective will tell you when you are just inches from the ground.

Go out with your instructor and do wheel landings (on a nice long runway) but without dropping the tail (so you aren't actually landing). Get the feel for both the sight picture and what it feels like to just touchdown and then back in the air a couple of inches and touchdown and back in the air a couple of inches- doing this primarily with the throttle. If you find yourself forcing it down with the yoke guess what- you are at flying speed in ground effect- in other words you are too fast. It should look something like this. (Okay I couldn't resist putting in a photo of me on the flight that signed me off as a dragger pilot. Who can tell where I was for that training?)


And don't fixate on the landing, that's easy to want to do in a tail dragger. Keep your eyeballs alive (moving around) looking close, far, side to side, looking for deer, taking it all in. Keep your throttle hand alive, adjusting power as needed to achieve the decent rate you want, to hold off when you want. Keep your feet alive on the rudder pedals.

And don't get hung up on this speed or that speed or this fpm or that fpm or this or that anything. Those are just crutches. Just fly the plane and pay attention to what she is telling you and adjust. Otherwise you become just a one or two trick pony.

And most importantly remember, this is supposed to be fun. So relax and enjoy the ride.

Barnstormer wrote:And most importantly remember, this is supposed to be fun. So relax and enjoy the ride.

That's a great album!

CamTom12 wrote:That's a great album!

Sure is. Wish they would have collaborated more.

One of the most fun things I have done in my plane is to go to the Blackrock desert, trim forward and do 5 or 10 miles of touch and goes by just pulling it off a few inches and letting it wheel land itself. Like a 100 wheel landings in a row.

On tailwheel conversion you normally cover both three point and wheel landings. The advantage of teaching tail low wheel landings is that it avoids the theory of having an extra 5-10mph for wheel landings. I wonder how many people have been taught wheel landings with this extra speed concept, and then ‘planting’ the mains on touchdown.

The hold off applies to both three point and two point, and learning to hold off will and should avoid dropping a heavy tail wheel on touchdown.

I am with MTV not sure why the second instructor recommended switching to 8.50 x 10 (or x6?) tyres to help with bounces. These are not low psi tyres so other than changing the pitch attitude at three point there should be no material change to shock absorption, on a smooth surface. Because of the slightly higher pitch attitude on three point, arguably you are more likely to bounce as you did not hold off sufficiently and touched down too soon and fast, which causes the bounce.

An effective technique to learn to hold off is to fly an approach and then hold off touching down a few inches off the runway and then going around. Also with a heavy taildragger it may be easier to land with 20 degree flaps than full flaps until you gain better proficiency.

A famous story, which I do hope is true, had a senior captain struggling with his conversion to a Boeing 747. The airline (British or Cathay) booked him into a second floor hotel room that looked down on the runway of Kai Tak and told him to stay there until he had learned the sight picture for rounding out the 747. The 180 on smaller tyres will have slightly better visibility in the three point attitude, but either way we are talking much better view from the cockpit than a Pitts or 195.

MAF have had a bad run lately with 2 Caravans and a Kodiak lost. They seem to put more credence to being pious, bible studies and undercutting commercial operators than flight skills.
The tail low wheeler is a standard approach for those that earn a living flying, MAF have just picked it up and use it for training and call it their own.
There is no one right way, there are many ways to get the same result, use what works best for you and yout aircraft.

I don't think MAF claims to have "invented" the tail-low wheel landing, it's just the standard operating procedure they have adopted, and thus the one they teach. Personally, I appreciate the fact that someone is willing to put their documentation out there for all of us to see – and learn from, in my case.

They've certainly experienced a string of incidents earlier this year, but nothing that I read in the reports I saw appeared to indicate that the pilot's bible studies or piousness (especially at the expense of professionalism or flight skills) had any influence on the incidents. In the fatal incident (Kodiak), the pilot was flying alone, carrying Covid-19 test kits to a remote location. The cause is still unknown, but it was not during a takeoff or landing. The other two incidents may or may not have been pilot error, but none of us is immune from mistakes. Sometimes we just manage to get away with them...

I never heard of an MAF operation "undercutting commercial operators" when I observed them in Brazil, where I lived off-and-on for nearly 16 years. They were usually flying people that could not afford commercial flights into and out of locations that were not served by any scheduled (or charter, for that matter) services, and doing so for humanitarian, medical, or religious reasons. Are they motivated by religious principles? Absolutely! Does that mean they are any less professional or capable than someone who is motivated solely by their paycheck? I doubt it. The MAF pilots I have known were among the most competent and professional pilots, dedicated to their craft as well as their religion.

Oldfart wrote:....The tail low wheeler is a standard approach for those that earn a living flying, MAF have just picked it up and use it for training and call it their own.
There is no one right way, there are many ways to get the same result, use what works best for you and yout aircraft.

1) I've never heard the MAF claim any method as "their own". Bill White, a 180/185 owner & aviation insurance broker, is the one who wrote the article I quoted-- he's the one who calls it "the MAF technique".

2) the BW article doesn't really describe a tail-low wheel landing, just one way to do what I consider a standard wheel landing.

3) I agree about there being no one best way to land, or for that matter to do most things,
and also about the "use what works best for you" suggestion.

mtv wrote:I seriously doubt there’s going to be a big difference.

The larger the tire, the easier it is to land. (with in reason) 8.5x6 is the best tire for learning, with the Desser being #1. nice and soft for forgiveness, and wears really tough. It is much harder to learn on small tires.

Greg-

Bigrenna wrote:

mtv wrote:I seriously doubt there’s going to be a big difference.

The larger the tire, the easier it is to land. (with in reason) 8.5x6 is the best tire for learning, with the Desser being #1. nice and soft for forgiveness, and wears really tough. It is much harder to learn on small tires.

Greg-

Greg,

I'd argue the "much harder" statement, actually, I'd call BS on that. A little, maybe, but frankly, these airplanes aren't fire breathing dragons. If you or your instructor can't learn to handle the airplane with either of those tire sizes, you'd be well off to trade that plane for a 182. And, find another instructor.

I've heard folks claim that landing on Bushwheels is "much harder" on pavement than on 8.50s. I find them easier if anything.

Frankly, there's waaaaay too many head games that go along with these planes. They are not space craft, and there are no mysteries. I sure as hell wouldn't change tires just to practice.

MTV

If you want to be good at shooting free throws practice shooting 100s of baskets, if you want to be really good at landing do 100s of landings. Watch a crop duster land, usually with a tailwind and choosing to land long because he can fly faster than he can taxi, rolls to the end,swings around, loads and takes off into the wind. I watched a guy planting wheat in a soy bean field on the local airport a few years ago doing 4 minute turns (landing every 4 minutes). He made it look easy because he was doing 10's of landings a day If I was going to change tires for the only purpose of doing 50 or 60 hours of landings (300 or 400) I would buy 6.00x6 retreads for $96 each instead of 8.50x6's at $341 each. Then once you get really good at it (landing) put your 8.50 back on or what ever tire you think is right for your need. You will never get really good at landing building hours cruising around. Just the opinion of one old guy.

Tim

I'd get the cheapest and do lots of landings.

The 850's will be more forgiving. Don't do what my Dad decided to do a while back teaching my son and let the air pressure down on the 600's. You'll spin the tyre and rip the valve.

He always ran around with flat-ish tyres in his Ag-Cat. He said you do nicer landings. I think he was always busy and couldn't be bothered pumping up his tyres.

I must be missing something here, are you planning on changes shoes regularly. If it was me I'd be putting on the shoes I intend to go dancing in and practice, practice, practice.

Every time I see this thread I hear the dude in this video saying “IDK, whatever’s in there.”



I’d say find an experienced instructor that doesn’t care what size tires are on the plane and just “run what ya brung.”

JP256 wrote:I don't think MAF claims to have "invented" the tail-low wheel landing, it's just the standard operating procedure they have adopted, and thus the one they teach. Personally, I appreciate the fact that someone is willing to put their documentation out there for all of us to see – and learn from, in my case.

They've certainly experienced a string of incidents earlier this year, but nothing that I read in the reports I saw appeared to indicate that the pilot's bible studies or piousness (especially at the expense of professionalism or flight skills) had any influence on the incidents. In the fatal incident (Kodiak), the pilot was flying alone, carrying Covid-19 test kits to a remote location. The cause is still unknown, but it was not during a takeoff or landing. The other two incidents may or may not have been pilot error, but none of us is immune from mistakes. Sometimes we just manage to get away with them...

I never heard of an MAF operation "undercutting commercial operators" when I observed them in Brazil, where I lived off-and-on for nearly 16 years. They were usually flying people that could not afford commercial flights into and out of locations that were not served by any scheduled (or charter, for that matter) services, and doing so for humanitarian, medical, or religious reasons. Are they motivated by religious principles? Absolutely! Does that mean they are any less professional or capable than someone who is motivated solely by their paycheck? I doubt it. The MAF pilots I have known were among the most competent and professional pilots, dedicated to their craft as well as their religion.

Yes, we should learn from accidents. MAF mainly use Caravan and Kodiak now? They still use 185's anywhere? I have seen them operate out of Sentani in Papua, MAF is one of maybe 4 "Missionary" mobs there, other companies operate everything from PAC750's to PC6's.

Agreed, we make mistakes, the thing is to learn by them. The 2 Caravan accidents were rookie mistakes with very expensive aircraft.
On an Internet mention the Kodiak accident near Sentani it was said not to be an engine failure, not sure what else a ditching could be, maintenance failure? Medical episode? Unless details are released we will not learn from it.


I have not flown South America but in ask any non missionary company in Asia (Papua, Sulawesi and Kalimantan) what they think of MAF tactics. MAF's primary cause is saving souls for Jesus, the rest of the work they do is to supplement that aim.
Last I heard MAF pilots were not paid pilot wages, they work for missionary money which is considerably less.

Tex wrote:I'd get the cheapest and do lots of landings.

My thoughts exactly.

Oregon180 wrote:

Tex wrote:I'd get the cheapest and do lots of landings.

My thoughts exactly.

You’ll get literally hundreds of landings and takeoffs out of a good quality tire. It might be worth changing Bushwheels out for more “normal” tires, but otherwise, I’d just go fly the thing.

MTV

Deleted, no added value

CamTom12 wrote:

Barnstormer wrote:And most importantly remember, this is supposed to be fun. So relax and enjoy the ride.

That's a great album!

Apologizing for my ignorance, what is the name of this album?

Riding With The King