Not specifically BC related but seems like lots of knowledgeable guys are on here -- so what's the best way to go about buying an airplane long distance (like across the country)? It's not a problem for me to get out and see a few aircraft but I'm not sure how to best go about this and avoid a big surprise/wasted time. Does this plan make sense?

1) identify a good plane on the interwebs and get as much info as I can from the owner over the phone / through email etc
2) settle on a price, send deposit (2% of purchase price?)
3) find independent mechanic nearby aircraft to do prepurchase inspection
4) assuming all good, travel out to see the plane for myself, inspect and fly it, if all's acceptable, finalize sale and fly that sucker home.
5) possibly do a full annual with my trusted mechanic at home once I get back

Thanks for the help, any advice appreciated. This is going to be my first wholly owned aircraft ... Looking at 1970s 172s and 182s.

* Check insurance rates first for you flying the aircraft
* Read AC Plane Sense
* Get good at reading logs

Be ready to get lied too. So many guys advertise the most bizarre listings for an aircraft. Take your time.

Aerospace Reports is a good resource. Check for clear title, view all 337s/ airworthiness/ registration history on file with Oklahoma City, and all accident/ incident reports. If you end up buying, they can provide escrow.
One example- the old airworthiness records and registration history allowed me to track down a former owner in Canada (where the plane I was looking at had previously had a Canadian registration and a different tail number). He was very happy to tell me about the time the plane sank in salt water.

I'll probably get flamed, but here goes.....IMHO it's kind of silly to travel halfway across the country in search of a relatively common airplane like a 150, 172, or 182. There's usually plenty of those for sale, esp 172's, so check close to home first. My take is that the farther away from home it is & the more trouble it is to check out, the more likely it is to be unsatisfactory, either not as represented or at least not as you pictured it. I know a guy who went all the way from Seattle to Palm Springs to buy a Luscombe, when there were two or three Luscombes for sale locally that he didn't even bother to go check out. You can get all the outside opinions and pre-buys in the world, but there's nothing like laying your eyes on an airplane & making up your own mind. I've owned a stock 150, a ragwing 170, a C150/150 taildragger (not an esp common airplane), and now a C180...and three of them I bought right here in the Puget Sound area. I had to go all the way to Oroville WA (140NM as the crow flies) to find the 150/150.

The other nice thing about buying locally is that you might have some inside poop from people who know the airplane. I bought my 180 from a guy I've probably known 10 years or so, plus we have a lot of friends in common, so I would have heard if the airplane had had any issues. For example: "hey didja hear about Joe's airplane, he found a lot of corrosion at his last annual", "... didja hear about Joe's airplane, he had a prop strike", "...didja hear about Joe's airplane, he ground-looped it but left the phonied-up repairs out of the logbooks".

Speaking of which, the expression "no damage history" can be interpreted a couple ways: 1) no damage in it's history, or 2) no history of it's damage. Caveat emptor- latin for let the buyer beware!

I agree but, in areas with low numbers and high time birds, traveling could make sense. We purchased a C172 in Santa Maria, California (same area as CPA) that was the best low time aircraft ever seen. It was an "L". No way would we have found a "Cherry" C172L like her in Hawaii. Hawaii is well known to have trashed aircraft for sale.

The aircraft was boxed and delivered no regrets.

Good thoughts, thank you. And I hear you hotrod on the benefits of buying locally, that would be #1 choice. I've been disappointed by what I've seen near Seattle thus far, expanding the search I get what appear on paper at least to be better values. Looks like you're from around here too, am I the only one who thinks things in general (planes, cars, boats, homes) tend to be priced on the high side up here?

I don't know your budget but this is a pretty reasonably priced Hawk XP in Oregon.

http://medford.craigslist.org/for/5015226687.html

I wish it was closer to me as I am looking for something along these lines. It seems when I want to buy something they become very scarce and when I go to sell the same item no one is interested. Being patient is so hard to do. Good Luck!

Sometimes you just have to be willing to reach out a long way to find the right plane. I was living in Virginia when I bought my current plane. Ironically, the plane I bought was here in the Seattle area. I was determined to get a 180 Hp Maule with the long wing and the spring gear and this was the only plane matching that exact description that showed up in 4 months of searching.

A couple of extra thoughts for you if you do buy long distance. I put my down payment into an escrow account (just like buying a house). That demonstrated good faith on my part, but precluded any shenanigans with the money if the plane turned out to be less than what I was looking for. I also flew out for the pre-buy inspection and participated in it. Find a mechanic that will let you do that. I learned a LOT more about this specific plane in the process.

My plane wound up having major engine problems (shiny metal flakes in the oil filter element) and had to be torn down. The cam had to be replaced, along with the bearings. There was some back and forth over who would pay for the pistons to be replaced and for resurfacing the cylinders. The seller and I almost parted ways, but eventually came to a mutually agreeable price for the plane considering the work that had to be done. That took time, so I flew back to Virginia until the repairs were complete and returned to pick up my bird and fly her home.

I had a lot of tailwheel time, but nothing recent, and no Maule time. The insurance company required 10 hours in type to cover me. I got a local instructor to spend more time than that with me so I felt comfortable flying the bird over 3,000 miles to get home (my wife and I flew all the way down the California coast before turning left). In the end, I wound up with the exact plane I wanted for a fair price, so don't write off buying from a distance, but don't get over excited about a quick closing when you find what you think is your dream plane. Take it slow and easy and preserve your options along the way.

I have to echo that if you're wanting a fairly common airplane, look locally first. When I first started looking 40 years ago when I lived in Laramie, I saw a Skylane at Jeffco (now Rocky Mountain Metro) near Denver which interested me--faded paint, but otherwise in good condition with acceptable avionics, at a fair price. I asked one of our local mechanics in Laramie if he'd look it over for me, but he told me about a little used Skylane right there in the community hangar at Laramie. It was in better shape, 2 years newer, always hangared, had only 350 hours on it, but hadn't been flown in over a year. Long story short, he put 3 of us together on it, and we bought it at a fair price, flew it for the next 4 years putting about 1200 hours on it. Because of the disuse, we had to overhaul it early, but it was a fine airplane--and not 2 1/2 miles from my front door.

On the other hand, if you're looking for something a bit unusual, that might require some travel. When I started looking a dozen years ago, I was interested in a 172 converted to 180hp with a CS prop. At the time, I could only find 4 or 5 anywhere in the country, using various Internet sources and Trade-a-Plane. There were a couple in Florida and one in the LA area--didn't want any that had been near salt water. I don't recall where others were, but when I found mine in Tulsa, I flew there first to look it over--always had been in dry country, which was one thing I wanted. It was being brokered, so I took it for a ride with the broker/salesman, and decided it was the one for me. I had the logs copied, they looked clean, and I spent most of a day going over it myself. As a non-mechanic, I missed a few things, but nothing dramatic--a pretty solid little airplane, low airframe hours, supposedly bullet-proof Lycoming engine with less than 1000 hours on it. A few weeks later, I bought it.

As I've mentioned here before, I only had it 15 hours before the engine threw a rod and I landed in a field. But the most meticulous prebuy wouldn't have found any engine anomalies, as a bearing spun and blocked an oil passage. Replacing the engine and doing a bunch of other upgrades while it was down made it the most expensive 180hp CS converted 172 on the planet, but it's given good service over the past 11 years. It's a great little airplane, and I expect to keep it until my flying days are over.

So nothing's guaranteed, but look close to home first. My view is find the airplane you want first, then have it examined by a knowledgeable mechanic. Airplanes are pretty personal things for most of us.

Cary

SkyLarkin wrote: I don't know your budget but this is a pretty reasonably priced Hawk XP in Oregon.
http://medford.craigslist.org/for/5015226687.html

That does look pretty reasonable. Looks like a full IFR panel but with old original ARC avionics, which might be part of why it's priced where it is. Might be worth a call and a trip down to Salem, Tomahawk. I know a guy who has a Cessna T41, a military trainer which predates the Hawk XP but is very similar, and it's quite a performer.

Price-wise, I don't think airplanes in the PNW are priced much if any higher than elsewhere. I do think a lot of people are asking too much for their airplanes, but you can't blame them-- it's easy to dicker down if you're too high, but tough to dicker them back up if you're too low. Remember, the prices you see are asking prices- the actual selling prices are liable to be a lot lower. Don't be afraid to make a much lower offer if that seems warranted. If the seller gets offended, then that's too bad-- it's business, not personal.

I think most people selling their airplane look in TAP or on Barnstormers, find the highest priced airplane of their model, and use that for their asking price-- even though the TAP airplane might be a creampuff & theirs is a beater.

Hmm thanks for the listing Sky I'll check it out. I'm looking for a solid mechanically, but not necessarily pretty, lowland mountain airplane ideally with IFR gps already installed, that XP isn't a bad start. Something all-around capable that I won't worry about parking outside all year I guess.

Excellent points well taken, all. I didn't think about how much could be learned if present for the pre-buy, sitting through one would probably be very valuable for me even if I ended up not buying that particular plane.

Sunk planes, engines throwing rods @ 15 hrs ... Holy jeez.

Tomahawk49 wrote:Hmm thanks for the listing Sky I'll check it out. I'm looking for a solid mechanically, but not necessarily pretty, lowland mountain airplane ideally with IFR gps already installed, that XP isn't a bad start. Something all-around capable that I won't worry about parking outside all year I guess.

Excellent points well taken, all. I didn't think about how much could be learned if present for the pre-buy, sitting through one would probably be very valuable for me even if I ended up not buying that particular plane.

Sunk planes, engines throwing rods @ 15 hrs ... Holy jeez.

As to buying a airplane some distance away -depends on the "deal". -I'd still do the local thing -see you have a Cardinal -I check all the airports within say 200 miles for a good candidate. As to sitting there while A&P does a prebuy I'd definitely do that. First I'd fly the airplane with A&P and or seller. If everything looked good I get the A&P to start on Prebuy while you watched and ask questions. First "Annual" is usually the most telling as to how good a "deal" you got. Find a Mechanic you can work with and do owner assist . Stay away from "I just got my lice sense and have job at FBO" These guys(or gals) are parts changers not Mechanics.

I have bought seven aircraft and all but one have been between one thousand and three thousand miles away. All have been what I thought they would be and all have been break even or profitable. One of the things I think I've learned from it all is to really know the market as in, exactly what other similar aircraft are available at that time, in what shape and for how much (coffee and barnstormers every morning). There is no better tool than that to get a good purchase. The extra cost is a real deal too, figure $1.50 a mile or so. From Washington that airplane in Florida is priced about $4500 higher than the one on my home field even if they are asking the same. The biggest thing I think I've got out of it all though is being willing to take recreational trips to see some guys plane that remains that guys plane. You have to be willing to walk away, no matter what. I did take one trip from Washington state to New York for a five minute look at a PA-14 knock off with wings that had three inches of motion at the outboard end. Did I want to go for a flight after coming all of that way? No thanks. So, of the seven wins, there has been at least that many extra trips. I love travel and so don't mind that and yes, I'm stealing logic straight out of my wife's shopping handbook in not accounting that money into my aviation budgeting. What better thing is there to do than take a nice long trip to go talk airplanes?
Good luck.
FZ

Having Bought-sold and traded 45 airplanes and 4 helicopters in my life I know a little about the pitfalls and highs .If you go to the guy and he says "airplane doesn't fly " for whatever reason -unless your a A&P or experimental builder walk or run away. Sellers will use many excuses -"used to be my father in laws " and we don't have anyone that can fly . Engine that is just "freshly overhauled "-but hasn't been flown in 9 years is another ??? . Airplane was painted because ??? . Check NTSB records (as well as Insurance ) for damage ,Check by S/N -N numbers will change .Seems sellers will "forget it was in accident " and no log book entry . Found several 185's "totaled" on rolls -back on market after mysterious paint and body work. If your looking for a "fixer upper -pay a basket case price" . Missing pages are a automatic turn off - Lack of log books at all are common -especially in past years. Adding or recording time is another when tach is changed seems that the engine was overhauled but no or scanty paperwork. I go by this analogy "I believe on half of what I see and NONE of what I hear" lots of good deals out there -and some flakes .

Just my two cents. Buying an airplane is exciting and it is easy to get caught up in the thrill, but...

1) Take your time. Again local is better; but sometimes local is not an option.
2) get scans of all the logs sent to you before you even venture any further. Its easily done. Get your people to review them, well, study them in and out. As someone mentioned earlier; the logs can tell you a lot, almost all. No logs, or something just does not add up...move on.
3) find previous owners, talk, talk, talk....you will be surprised of what you will find out. Phone calls are cheap. (a patch from a rock in an airplane that I tried to buy one time was really a bullet hole. lol)
4) If the owner is agreeable for your inspection...if long distance, honestly....get it away from the home airport to get it done. Full inspection...not a "look over".
5) dont get caught up in the small stuff.
6) buy with the equipment you want (Avionics, GPS, Gauges, etc) already installed. Way more cost effective to buy it already installed rather than installing it after you buy.
7) ESCROW

The little amount of money that you will pay up front to be detailed in your search for the right plane will pay off in dividends after you get it home.

And most important...enjoy the process. You will learn lots.


Macdon221

182 STOL driver wrote:Seems sellers will "forget it was in accident " and no log book entry . Found several 185's "totaled" on rolls -back on market after mysterious paint and body work.

+1 on that. Be sure to google the tail number(s) and search the NTSB accident reports and FAA incident reports. It's amazing what doesn't get logged. Also, check on the type club forums to see if the seller has been posting about maintenance problems or questionable fixes.

You can also get on the FAA website and order all the aircraft's record on a CD for $10. Ownership, liens, airworthiness, 337's. Check for unreleased liens, they are usually not a big issue but like a lot of loose ends can be a PITA to clear up.