Backcountry Pilot • C-172 In The Mountains/High Elev.

C-172 In The Mountains/High Elev.

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C-172 In The Mountains/High Elev.

How well does a 172 do in the mountains? (Glenwood Spings for a rough example [yes, I know its a difficult airport])

Higher elevations, too?

The reason I ask is that I have a 1969 172K. I have been thinking about trying to do some mountain flying, but was wanting to get some opinions first.

WAIT! STOP! I know one of you is gonna say buy a 182 or stinson. (yes, I read the thread from 2009)
Basically thats not an option now. Maybe several years from now, but not RIGHT now. Trust me I hear ya. I love my friend's 182. Glad thats out of the way. :D

THE PLANE: My plane isn't stock. It has a Horton STOL kit and micro VGs. It does have the original 150hp Lycoming with a standard prop. The STOL setup helps for sure, but I don't want to HAVE to rely on it. In other words, I use the kit as extra cushion, NOT to push the limit.

THE TYPE OF FLYING: "Well, whats the mission", you ask. Well, I completely understand that its not gonna haul 4 people and full fuel. But I don't plan to take that many people. MOST of the time, I would fly with just me or one other person. No fat people. I pack light and I would force anyone flying with me to do the same.

WHY DO I ASK: Well, I know this has been discussed a bit on various websites, but its hard to find a clear answer. Most people who ask are wanting to take there buddies camping in the mountains. So the answer they get is "Buy a 182 for that". Some people seem to act as if 172s don't function above 5000'. One CFI mentioned he was worried about flying into Colorado Springs due to the elevation...in winter. :shock:
However, others seemed to feel the 172 was just fine in the mountains. Anyway, I figure you backcountry guys could give better information, so I am asking you. Also, I am more curious about the 150/160 hp 172s. I would love to have a bigger engine, but I don't have the AMU.

TL;DR: How would a 172 (with or without STOL kit) do in the mountains? Assuming you weren't expecting it perform like a fighter jet, and used your head.

Thanks in advance for your replies. I always seem to get good info from you guys. Well, most of you, anyway. :mrgreen:
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Re: C-172 In The Mountains/High Elev.

I think the only way you're really going to answer this for yourself is to go and do it. I owned a Cessna 170 with 145HP for 6 years and flew it all over the western states. I was based out of Cheyenne Wyoming with an elevation over 6k for part of that time. It'll do a lot more than you think it will but you have to fly smart and know your limits and the planes limits.
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Re: C-172 In The Mountains/High Elev.

robw56 wrote:I think the only way you're really going to answer this for yourself is to go and do it. I owned a Cessna 170 with 145HP for 6 years and flew it all over the western states. I was based out of Cheyenne Wyoming with an elevation over 6k for part of that time. It'll do a lot more than you think it will but you have to fly smart and know your limits and the planes limits.


Yeah, thats the second thing I guess I was looking for. I just want to make sure I would be okay to get out there and practice and learn in my 172.

There's a guy at Glenwood Springs that said he would give me a little mountain course, but I would have to get there first. :shock: I hear its a little tricky.

I hear ya on flying within the limits. It doesn't matter what plane you have; if you don't use your head, it will kill you.
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Re: C-172 In The Mountains/High Elev.

Best news I can give is a short note that I have posted before.

I know where I can show you a picture of a stock
145 Hp 172 sitting high in the saddle at Mile High,
and put there by a lady pilot.

The message is that it is not always the plane that counts.

Now the usual- Take it slow and don't RUSH any of the learning process.
Get professional training, at least at the general level,
then Practice- practice- practice-
I have flown a 172 into several Id. strips.
Part of what helped for me is that I prefer, at may age, to stay
in McCall overnight at the Super 8 just across the street.
Try to find someone who has actually been to where you want to go the first time.

Nuff for now
Time for the flood.

Chris C

PS: Climb prop should be an easy fix- remove rear seats
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Re: C-172 In The Mountains/High Elev.

What those two guys said. Great airplane, lots of capability. Get some instruction, then go easy till you're comfortable.

A 172 light is a good performer.

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Re: C-172 In The Mountains/High Elev.

Go and have some fun. The flight school in Rangely uses 172's. When I taught there many many moons ago, our mountain flying course went from there to Glenwood, Aspen then Leadville. Most of the mtn flying courses were taught in the summer session. It was fun to demonstrate how you could knock the 200fpm climb from Leadville in half by opening a door and just let it trail. Made an impression for sure.
Several guys here in the San Luis Valley with straight tail 172s (O300). We've been to 16K in one before, working a cloud street.They work great. Keep it light!
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Re: C-172 In The Mountains/High Elev.

Definitely what they said. I'd also add strategy is bigger when the motor isn't. I have 800 hours in a 145HP 172 all over the southwest, it's doable. You're just have to work around a few less options. Fly only early and cool, ditch the back seat as well as anything else you can lose and learn to pack really light. Learn to calculate DA and get a take off performance calculator. Then, my favorite, go up to ten or twelve K, or near the service ceiling, and play with stalls and tight turns and climbs (such as they are). The thing about bigger HP is it gives you more options and makes it easier to be a little lazy and I'm all in favor of that but when you have what you have, making it work is a really cool thing to do.
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Re: C-172 In The Mountains/High Elev.

I owned a bone stock 1961 C172 (with the O300 engine) when I trained and got my PPL out of Leadville many years ago. Flew all over the mountains in CO. Perfectly fine for two people, even in summer. With one person, not too difficult to get to 16,500 - just took some time. Just need to be careful and use your head. The airplane was totaled when my co-owner tried taking off with 3 adults and a kid from LXV in mid-winter. He did not survive but the other three did.

And the comment about trying stalls reminds me of taking my checkride in Grand Junction. Examiner asked me to do a straight stall so I pulled the yoke and mushed down a bit. "No, I mean a stall" and he grabbed the yoke and yanked on it. First time I ever saw a real stall break in that airplane because it wouldn't break at all trying to stall at 12,000 above LXV, no matter how hard you pulled on the yoke!
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Re: C-172 In The Mountains/High Elev.

I agree with others here that the 172 with O-300 or O-320 can be flown comfortably in the Colorado Rockies when kept light and taking advantage of lower DA times of day.

I also realized that some of my students and BFR guys occasionally got started late or had during the heat of day schedules. For that reason I always taught and encouraged the use of low ground effect takeoff, energy management turns, wind management, and apparent rate of closure approach.

Click below for chapters on each or just be really careful if not interested.
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Re: C-172 In The Mountains/High Elev.

You have to get comfortable with not being impressed, and possibly a little concerned at all times during any phase of flight that requires power.

Pretty much what everyone else said here: keep it well under max gross, carry less fuel and plan for more fuel stops, carry less shit, just go without, and limit your meat to one pax. A lightly loaded 172 has a much different character than a heavy one. Pay close attention to air temps as high DA can have a greater impact than anything.

You develop a feel for where the wing is most efficient in climb, and a patience for anything climb related. You become better acquainted with the finer details of trees and terrain while never really feeling like you have positive pitch attitude. Learn how to take advantage of ground effect for building airspeed with less drag before climbing.

Certainly go do it, because there's no substitute for actually experiencing realistic performance, but approach it carefully because it's easy to get in trouble. There are countless NTSB reports that involve 172s in the trees at the end of the runway on a hot day, or worse. Hell, lots of 182s as well. Those were the guys that never learned to fly a low power aircraft to begin with.
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Re: C-172 In The Mountains/High Elev.

I flew a 145 hp 170 around the high country during all seasons for 10 years. I wouldn't trade the lessons that I learned from a thousand hours of knocking around the mountains in an "underpowered" airplane for a thousand hours of C185 time.

Despite the seating configuration, it is a two-place airplane for operations from fields above about 2000 ft, and very seldom adequate for carrying four people.

I learned to keep it as light as possible, use thermals to gain altitude, ride ridge lift, zig-zag or circle to climb over terrain and tie the airplane down for the day by about 10 AM on days when the temperature was expected to rise.

Your understanding of and respect for the limitations of the aircraft are more important than the actual limitations of the aircraft. A 172 will fly great in the mountains under the right conditions.

Have fun!
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Re: C-172 In The Mountains/High Elev.

Glad to hear it! I like the idea of having to learn to fly an underpowered bird in the mountains.

While I am not used to mountain density altitudes, I am used to Kansas DAs. In Kansas, we can have 110 degrees and 80% humidity. It sucks, especially for a farmer like me. Anyway, I have watched the performance change. Of course, its not the same elevation as in the mountains, but the same principle.

This is the same bird I solo'ed in several years ago, so I am kind of attached to it. With the STOL kit and VGs, it won't stall easy. I am eager to see how it does out there.
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Re: C-172 In The Mountains/High Elev.

Zzz wrote:Pretty much what everyone else said here: keep it well under max gross, carry less fuel and plan for more fuel stops, carry less shit, just go without, and limit your meat to one pax. A lightly loaded 172 has a much different character than a heavy one. Pay close attention to air temps as high DA can have a greater impact than anything.


+1

Weight is probably the biggest factor in an lower-powered C172. A very lightly loaded 172 still gives you spirited performance at 11,000 DA, but with 4 people on board you're lucky to even get to 11,000 DA.

I used to climb up to 11k in a C172 almost every flight. This was ten years ago.
Sometimes we arrived in 15 minutes and it was still showing 500ft/min when we arrived. Other times it took 20 minutes or even 25. Still other times we never made it to 11k. Depends on the load. Whereas a plane with twice the horsepower will finish that climb in literally half the elapsed time, and a red hot engine...
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Re: C-172 In The Mountains/High Elev.

All good advice.

Fly as early as possible, at sunrise if possible, usually less to no wind,and cooler temps will help performance,it does make a big difference.
Go do it , its the best kind of flying.
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Re: C-172 In The Mountains/High Elev.

Add a Powerflow exhaust if you plan to keep it. I added PF to mine, incidentally a 69K also, and it really helped climb rate, especially lightly loaded. I rarely fly by myself, my hangar manager often says, "at some point you gotta scare someone else...", but often 2 with half fuel.
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Re: C-172 In The Mountains/High Elev.

Wa180 wrote:Add a Powerflow exhaust if you plan to keep it. I added PF to mine, incidentally a 69K also, and it really helped climb rate, especially lightly loaded. I rarely fly by myself, my hangar manager often says, "at some point you gotta scare someone else...", but often 2 with half fuel.


I have thought about it, however when I asked my mechanic, he said he didn't notice much difference after install them.

Hard to say, but for right now that $4,000 is better spent paying off the bird. :mrgreen:
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Re: C-172 In The Mountains/High Elev.

Order it in December for February delivery, and you get a pretty good discount. My data point is 1, and I did pay for it myself, but it has certainly helped my aircraft, with no other mods except for big tires. I get every bit of performance gain claimed by PF. I have a fuel totalizer and I use more fuel than previous, and more fuel flow = more horsepower. I also get the increased climb rate claimed by PF. I've had it on my plane for 1.5 years now, and it is a great mod and you can keep the autogas STC if you have it.
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Re: C-172 In The Mountains/High Elev.

Gas is a good buy; and makes the pilot more experienced.
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Re: C-172 In The Mountains/High Elev.

contactflying wrote:Gas is a good buy; and makes the pilot more experienced.


My thoughts exactly.
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Re: C-172 In The Mountains/High Elev.

When I was instructing out of Laramie (elev. 7277'), most of it was in 172s of various vintage, including 145hp Continentals, and 150hp and 160hp Lycomings. Our "instrument trainer" was a 182, and we had 2 other 182s that we did some instructing in, but mostly that was for people transitioning to the larger, more powerful airplanes. So I spent a lot of time in 172s at high DAs.

With only 2 reasonably sized people aboard, a properly leaned 172 works very, very well up to DAs into the 11,000' range. It'll definitely go higher, but it's a strain. Put a person (or equivalent weight) in the backseat, and performance drops off significantly, but we did a lot of training with 3 aboard, the student, the instructor, and typically another student watching. But you just have to get used to the anemic climb performance.

A couple of illustrative stories about 172s and high DAs:

First story: My step-bro and his wife were visiting, and Wife 1 and I wanted to show them the Laramie Valley from the air. He was a newly minted private pilot, learning in a PA-28-140 in the Detroit area, where airport elevations are roughly +/- 700' MSL. It was a very warm day, about 85F, so I'd made a point of making sure that the airplane had only half tanks. With our respective weights of about me at 170 (that was 30 lbs ago), him at 160, Wife 1 at 130, and his wife at about 120, nothing in the way of baggage, and approximately 130 lbs of fuel, we were actually about 120 lbs below gross. When I called FSS for a field advisory, I got the usual comment, "Caution, density altitude is approximately 10,500'."

As I did the run-up, my step-bro asked "why are you doing that?" I replied that at higher density altitudes, it's necessary to lean the carburetor for the elevation. OK. Then we taxied out to 21, and our take off roll was something like 3500' long. We broke ground right about where 12/30 crosses 21/3 and climbed out at the rate of about 250 fpm. He then asked, "what's wrong with the airplane? Shouldn't it climb better than this?" Again I explained about DA, and how it affected power, lift, and thrust, and that this was as good as any 172 could do. We continued to climb out, flew around for awhile at around 10,000', which was just about what the airplane could do comfortably, and then returned. It was quite an eye-opener for him.

Second story: One nice summer day, a young couple and their two little girls landed at Laramie for fuel and lunch in a shiny new-looking 172. This was in the late 70s, so it was probably a 160hp model. I don't recall where they were from, but my recollection is that it was somewhere in eastern Iowa. They borrowed a car, drove into town, and returned. He did a pretty thorough preflight, they loaded up, and they taxied out. From the black smoke coming from the exhaust, it was obvious that he wasn't leaning for taxi. I watched him do the run-up and pull out onto the runway to take off. A few minutes later, they taxied back in. He had aborted the take off, and he said as he came into the FBO office, "There's something wrong with the airplane. Is there a mechanic around?"

I told him that since it was the weekend, there wasn't any mechanic, but I asked him what was wrong, and he said that it didn't have any power. I asked him if he'd leaned for take off, and I got that deer-in-the-headlights look that said, "I don't know what you're talking about." So I offered to show him, and he was really aghast--"the manual says full rich for take off!" I assured him that at Laramie's elevation, no matter what time of year, we always leaned on the ground for best power. I also cautioned him to expect a much longer ground roll and a relatively low climb rate compared to what he was used to. So they loaded up again, and this time their take off was satisfactory.

I have many more stories, but let me end with this one. I was having lunch at the restaurant at KGXY (Greeley) and overheard a discussion in the next booth. An instructor and his student were planning to fly into Marble, CO, the next weekend, in a stock 160hp 172. The instructor, from the Denver area, was accustomed to high DAs, but he'd not flown into the mountains in one. I was going there myself that next weekend, so I made some route suggestions. As it happened, on the day we flew in, they were ahead of me, announcing over Redstone as I entered the canyon south of Carbondale. I heard their announcements, and as I was on upwind, they announced downwind, and there they were. But as I turned downwind, they announced that they were going around. I landed, and soon afterwards, they landed, also.

I helped them park, and I asked the instructor about the go around. He said that his student had misjudged and was likely to land too far down the strip, so he had told him to go around--always a good decision when things don't look right, even if the landing can be salvaged. I asked him how the airplane had performed, and he told me that the only issue that they'd had was coming over Corona Pass, because the climb rate had dropped to about 150 fpm for awhile, so that they had circled to get up to 13,000' before crossing. They had kept it light--didn't even bring a tent! Here I was with my full "glamping" equipment (large tent, cot, chairs, cooler, 35# survival kit, 67# dog and her needs, etc.). My P172D has 180hp and a CS prop, but I'll bet as light as they were, their airplane performed better than mine did.

One last thought: Your STOL kit and VGs won't make any difference at all in your airplane's abilities at high DAs. They do slightly lower your stall speeds, and they give you more control at slower airspeeds, but they don't work miracles. You're accustomed to airfields of around +/- 3000' MSL, and there's a big difference in higher elevation airports. But take it easy, don't expect too much of your airplane, and it'll be able to handle the mountains. I strongly suggest that you get some mountain instruction, though--it's worth its weight in gold. When you're flying at the edge of your airplane's performance, and there are rocks on either side of your flight path, it can be pretty daunting.

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