Was out practicing a few canyon turns in the canyon

I like this technique but it works best if you have a little reserve airspeed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJc1nD9qyuY

I do those a lot but not in between two walls like that. With my 182, entering at 80 knots full flaps yarding hard on the nose and 90 degree bank, I'll usually make the stall horn squeek so I never cross a mountain under 80 knots. Feels like about 3 g's.

I respectfully disagree with both of you. I believe that the safest canyon turn is level, limited to a 45 degree bank or so, at as slow a speed as remains safely above the stall in that bank. That will result in a minimum radius turn without any loss of altitude. It should go without saying that it begins as far to the downwind side of the canyon as is practicable with the turn into the wind to further minimize the turn radius.

It is not necessary or desirable to mimic a hammerhead turn or a wingover, because it is way too easy to lose situational awareness without a horizon to guide you. The exit path while making the very steep turn at the top of the turn is relatively unpredictable, and there is little opportunity to correct any mistakes. Such maneuvers take a lot of practice to perfect, without the worry about running into canyon walls in the process.

It is not necessary and very undesirable to overbank, as an extremely steep bank approaching 90 degrees will either result in a stall or a significant loss of altitude. A stall recovery in a turn leads to an unpredictable recovery path and an unknown loss of altitude. The risk of overstressing the aircraft in an extremely steeply banked turn, especially with full flaps deployed, is very real. The 3.8 G force which is the maximum a normal category airplane is allowed to experience is with flaps fully retracted.

There isn't any need to become a test pilot with canyon turns. Safer methods have been around since long before Sparky Imeson described them in his earliest editions of Mountain Flying.

Cary

Honestly, I think Blu nailed it just watching a few times. Looked like the classic combo of wing over and steep turn. He maintained airspeed for best angle of climb and at the apex of the turn you could hear the horn bump and made a 180 degree turn at the steepest bank without loosing much altitude. I have always thought and will use that as the best procedure. I also dont think this turn was more than 60 degrees either which in my mind is perfect. Adding more bank to the turn, well we know where that could end up...

Ideally if you find yourself in that situation for real, you have some power left in your machine to apply (also a couple notches of flaps) raise the noise while performing a steep turn (not as much bank as a true steep turn, about half) at the apex you may hear the horn bump, continue the turn as the noise drops slightly back to where you started from. You have then performed a perfect canyon turn.

No need for slowing down, adding flaps and trying to stay level while you find yourself in an almost near panic as the walls start to close in on you. Thats a classic spin formula. Having just completed the second branch of spin training that is how we get into them in the first place.

The "slight" steep turn / "almost" wing over formula works very well. Practice the the slow level turn and the other described here and compare the two. I promise you that the one explained is going to turn you around quicker and safer without loosing altitude.

Just my 2c

AKT

aktahoe1 wrote:Honestly, I think Blu nailed it just watching a few times. Looked like the classic combo of wing over and steep turn. He maintained airspeed for best angle of climb and at the apex of the turn you could hear the horn bump and made a 180 degree turn at the steepest bank without loosing much altitude. I have always thought and will use that as the best procedure. I also dont think this turn was more than 60 degrees either which in my mind is perfect. Adding more bank to the turn, well we know where that could end up...

Ideally if you find yourself in that situation for real, you have some power left in your machine to apply (also a couple notches of flaps) raise the noise while performing a steep turn (not as much bank as a true steep turn, about half) at the apex you may hear the horn bump, continue the turn as the noise drops slightly back to where you started from. You have then performed a perfect canyon turn.

No need for slowing down, adding flaps and trying to stay level while you find yourself in an almost near panic as the walls start to close in on you. Thats a classic spin formula. Having just completed the second branch of spin training that is how we get into them in the first place.

The "slight" steep turn / "almost" wing over formula works very well. Practice the the slow level turn and the other described here and compare the two. I promise you that the one explained is going to turn you around quicker and safer without loosing altitude.

Just my 2c

AKT

I'd buy that. I wasn't suggesting steep turns, just saying I did them. My way works for me because I rode carving boards for 8 years. I probably had 5000 90 degree 2g turns in muscle memory before I ever flew a plane and a thousand after.

Nosedragger, I don't mean to be baiting you, but it is not possible to maintain altitude in a 182 in a 90 degree banked turn for more than a very few degrees of turn. I frankly doubt that you've banked it even for a short time to 90 degrees, and certainly not for a 180 degree reverse direction turn; few pilots of GA aircraft bank past 60 degrees except in aerobatics. When I was instructing and conducting BFRs years ago, few pilots of any skill level could maintain altitude in a 180 degree turn at 60 degrees bank, without quite a bit of practice. That's a 2G level turn. Because the G forces increase exponentially with the amount of bank, attempting a level continuous 90 degree banked turn would far exceed both the 3.8 Gs and the 50% safety factor of your aircraft--you would do massive structural damage before you could complete 180 degrees of turn. Fortunately, what you'd actually do is an accelerated stall, which would keep you from damaging your airplane, but then you'd probably lose control as you entered an over the top spin.

I suggest you don't try to do what you've said you've been doing--or at least don't do it closer than about 4000' AGL, to give you some time to attempt recovery. And please get some spin training first, so you'll know how to recover from the resultant spin.

Cary

What you describe sounds like a bit of fun Blu!
I must confess I mixed up my canyon turn with my reversal turn at my last BFR... so good on you for doing a bit of practice. We could all use more of that!

Not wanting to stir things up - but RE: 90 degree bank - here's some theory:

In a balanced turn at 90 degree bank angle, to maintain steady altitude for any length of time is impossible in almost all aircraft. Even an infinite G-force wouldn't help, because the lift force's vector is parallel to the ground, so there is no force available to oppose gravity. The only option is if the fuselage produces enough lift to support the aircraft, or I guess if you're unbalanced and have enough power / control for the engine to provide lift you need.
But you never said you were doing anything like that!

Not trying to get into a technical contest with anyone, it's over in seconds, maybe it's not 90 but it seems like it is. I've done the spin training and the same turns in an Extra, faster response but same idea. The point is, I'm comfortable turning around the way I do it, more so than a long flat turn.

Personally.... I would have got alot closer to the canyon wall on the right side of the aircraft before I started my 180 to the left... IMHO..

Nice work, Blu!

In my airplane: nose up to about 80, 20* flaps, full power, 45* bank, 180* turn. Come out with more altitude than when entering and never get close to a stall. Maybe no good if turning around due to lowering ceiling, but good for box canyons. Climbing lets some of your turn radius be used up vertically. (can you spell hypotenuse?)

I used to practice in the w. colo area too...and I never found a huge difference in turn radii between turning at a casual 45 degrees and turning steeper if the maneuver was initiated at something close to a clean Vy (in a 182). The higher speed needed in the sustained steep turn just seemed to mostly cancel out the advantage. The lower bank angle gave a lot of airspeed to burn up to gain altitude with during the initial entry. The higher bank angle gave no extra airspeed to burn up.

I'd enter the maneuver over a landmark, and judge how well I was doing over a different one. It was hard to tell if I was any better off at all using a casual 45 degree bank or a steep turn...the difference was fairly small- perhaps a wingspan or two. This was while having zero altitude loss, with electric flaps, etc.

The advantage is that at 45 degrees, you don't have to explain to your passenger where the sick sack is.

Watch the video of the Stinson guy with 3 pax stuffing it into the trees in Idaho from earlier this year. That is the corner of the envelope most people are gonna find themselves when they need to canyon turn for real. No airspeed, no energy, and nothing but the skin of their teeth to turn with.

If you get that far into FUBAR, it's time to start thinking a landing rather than keep flying.

Gump

I'm going to +1 with Gump, the voice of experience. The turn in the video is done with lots of surplus kinetic energy and power...not your typical canyon turn situation.

Gump is right, when you get into that kind of situation you don't have much left. If your version of a canyon turn doesn't begin with full power and minimum airspeed then you better add another version to your tool box. Other versions might produce a tighter turn but if you don't have the power, airspeed or altitude to perform them then they won't do you any good.

I have never executed a canyon turn out of necessity but I have made a 270deg turn because I turned the wrong way when departing a strip. Mountains all around and the only place to go was to either up or down stream and I made the wrong choice. By the time I realized I went the wrong way it was too late to turn back so I had to go 270deg. I was ten feet over the tops of the trees, throttle WFO, and turning into a tailwind.

After Berk's accident I went and tried several types of turns till I figured out what works best for me. I then practiced that turn till I could do it almost perfectly every time and I believe that is why I was able to successfully make that 270deg turn.

+1 Gump and Whee and Littlewheel

littlewheelinback wrote:I'm going to +1 with Gump, the voice of experience. The turn in the video is done with lots of surplus kinetic energy and power...not your typical canyon turn situation.

But pretty typical for a carbon cub with 180hp and 1000lb ramp weight 7000 feet below his service ceiling.

A CC can get backed into that corner, just like anything else that flys.

Gump

Wow who would thunk that posted video would get so critiqued. Remember there is always more than one way to skin a cat
and that an extra margin of speed is your friend. Plus a bit of power doesn't hurt either

If you let yourself to brain fart and get anywhere near a situation such as , narrow canyon, and for what ever reason Not recognized early that things are looking to go to shit and you let your AIRCRAFT SLOW DOWN NEAR Vs, you have no business being in the mountains in the first place. I bet you that most seasoned bush pilots on this forum, may have only ever got themselves into that predicament once in their early days. It's one situation you will not live long enough to repeat often.

exodus wrote:If you let yourself to brain fart and get anywhere near a situation such as , narrow canyon, and for what ever reason Not recognized early that things are looking to go to shit and you let your AIRCRAFT SLOW DOWN NEAR Vs, you have no business being in the mountains in the first place. I bet you that most seasoned bush pilots on this forum, may have only ever got themselves into that predicament once in their early days. It's one situation you will not live long enough to repeat often.

I think everyone here knows that. What is being criticized is the optimism with which maneuvers like this are practiced, the false sense of preparation that may come from doing it in a planned and perfect simulation that can lead to people actually believing that a canyon hammerhead (classic thread) is a practical solution for a scenario that is likely never going to be as ideal as our fantasies.

Blu did a fine example of a minimum radius turn, and it was really fun to watch. Nothing wrong with practicing those, and it's fun to boot. I just don't see it as a practical emergency maneuver.