Calling all gurus. I'm trying to understand more about the rudder aileron interconnect that came on some float kit equipped skywagons.

I've had 3 skywagons now and this is the first with system. Compared to previous... This plane is very heavy on the controls. I know many say 185's are heavy on the controls, but I'm trying to understand how much this system contributes. Lastly, if anyone has experience with removing this system and feedback on the before/after I'm all ears.

Bill

Bill, what year is your 185? 1975? Also, do you have wing X?

The later 185 is def way heavier on the controls compared to early models, and for sure heavier than 180's. Adding wing extensions will really kill any nimble feel on the ailerons.

bigrenna wrote:Bill, what year is your 185? 1975? Also, do you have wing X?

The later 185 is def way heavier on the controls compared to early models, and for sure heavier than 180's. Adding wing extensions will really kill any nimble feel on the ailerons.

Bigrenna,

Thanks for the quick response. It is a 75, no wing x. Very factory 185 for what it's worth. It also has the rudder centering springs, which I believe is part of the float kit too.

Of note, I've had a 75 180 and it was exactly as you stated above, lighter on the controls. My 55' was lighter by a mile. Interstingly though, I've flown a 79 model 180 with a float kit as well....which should be similar...but my 185 is much heavier on the rudder and ailerons.

Bill

Bill,

If you remove that "kit" it will make your airplane fly better. However, if you remove make sure you keep all the parts since your airplane MUST have this kit installed for float operations. I ran into this very issue when I removed it, lost the parts then had to scrounge and buy new parts when I put it on floats years ago. You may have no intention of ever putting it on floats but someday, ya never know.....

Kurt

I just removed the rudder centering spring set up last year on a 185. It comes right off with a few minuets of time down the tail cone. The airplane was sooo difficult to steer, on the ground, with the giant xp tail wheel. Removing the centering setup made night and day difference for taxing the plane.

Some of this was posted by others while I was looking up the years and typing, sorry.

The A185F (1973 and newer) and 180J and 180K (1973 and newer) require both the rudder aileron interconnect and rudder centering springs, which are included with the factory float kit or ski kit, when floats included on the Type Certificate are installed. They are also required for skis included on the Type Certificate. They may or may not be required with floats or skis approved for installation by an STC, unless of course listed in the STC installation instructions. They are not required when on wheels and may be removed or remained installed at the discretion of the operator. I had a A185F which had neither a float kit nor a ski kit and had to find the service kit which includes the rudder aileron interconnect and the rudder centering springs, when planning to install C3200 skis. This was a requirement of the Wipaire (Fluidyne) C3200 wheel ski installation drawing. I can not comment on the change in aircraft control feel as I never installed the kit. The 185 I had was equipped with the large center line photo port requiring the rudder cables to be routed differently from a standard airplane and that routing is not compatible with the rudder aileron interconnect which is located at the station 65.33 bulkhead (aft door post) under the floor. It is of interest that 180G and 180H aircraft modified per the Kenmore Air Harbor gross weight increase to 3190 pounds also requires the non-linear late model (1975 and newer) rudder centering springs when installed on floats but only when installed on floats. Sorry for the long post, hope this helps.

Tim

Very useful information! Thank you. My 185 spends time on floats, but when on wheels, cross controlling to lineup with the centerline for a crosswind landing takes a significant physical effort. The exertion takes away from my ability to focus and be precise. I'll have to understand how to read this from the parts and service manuals so that my mechanic will agree with removing these parts when on wheels, but this is going to be a significant improvement.

Pinecone wrote:Very useful information! Thank you. My 185 spends time on floats, but when on wheels, cross controlling to lineup with the centerline for a crosswind landing takes a significant physical effort. The exertion takes away from my ability to focus and be precise. I'll have to understand how to read this from the parts and service manuals so that my mechanic will agree with removing these parts when on wheels, but this is going to be a significant improvement.

Couldn't have said it better myself! Totally agree on the usefulness of the contributors here. While I don't float or ski, I will keep the system together for future utility. Should be a great improvement on mine.

G44 wrote:Bill,

If you remove that "kit" it will make your airplane fly better. However, if you remove make sure you keep all the parts since your airplane MUST have this kit installed for float operations. I ran into this very issue when I removed it, lost the parts then had to scrounge and buy new parts when I put it on floats years ago. You may have no intention of ever putting it on floats but someday, ya never know.....

Kurt

Thanks Kurt (and the rest of the responders)....this is exactly the info I was looking for. Does anyone know where I can get a drawing or instructions on how to remove/install the parts? Not looking for a freebie...just looking where I can get pointed to get the proper info.

Thanks again,
Bill

Bill,
If you look in the parts manual it will be clear that you can just remove the cables, the clamps that connect the cables and the springs. Cessna sold the float ki for your airplane in two configurations, float kit A which had the brackets, cables and springs installed and float kit B which had only the brackets installed and the cables and springs stowed to be installed later in the field. If you have the original equipment list for your airplane you may find that it had float kit B from the factory. In either case I think you can just remove them with a log book entry that they were removed and that it is in land plane configuration. It is important to note that the aileron and rudder control system without the interconnect or centering system installed conforms to the type certificate for for your airplane in land plane configuration and is per the FAR's a minor alteration requiring only a log book entry.

I looked at the aileron rudder interconnect and rudder centering spring kit (AK185-53B) I have today which includes three production drawings for the installation. Both the aileron rudder interconnect drawing and the rudder centering spring drawing have the notation that the springs will be stowed for shipment.

Hope this helps, Tim

bat443 wrote:Bill,
If you look in the parts manual it will be clear that you can just remove the cables, the clamps that connect the cables and the springs. Cessna sold the float ki for your airplane in two configurations, float kit A which had the brackets, cables and springs installed and float kit B which had only the brackets installed and the cables and springs stowed to be installed later in the field. If you have the original equipment list for your airplane you may find that it had float kit B from the factory. In either case I think you can just remove them with a log book entry that they were removed and that it is in land plane configuration. It is important to note that the aileron and rudder control system without the interconnect or centering system installed conforms to the type certificate for for your airplane in land plane configuration and is per the FAR's a minor alteration requiring only a log book entry.

I looked at the aileron rudder interconnect and rudder centering spring kit (AK185-53B) I have today which includes three production drawings for the installation. Both the aileron rudder interconnect drawing and the rudder centering spring drawing have the notation that the springs will be stowed for shipment.

Hope this helps, Tim

Thank you Tim, great info. I'll try and dig up some of those drawings or get the kit and move forward.

Thanks again,
Bill

I looked through the year-by-year model changes breakdown from the Stancil Aviation / Skywagons.com website, but couldn't find any mention of this aileron / rudder interconnect. Makes sense if it's part of a float kit mod, not a standard feature.

Unrelated, but there is mention of adding a "stabilizer-elevator down spring to improve longitudinal stability " to the 180 starting in 1960. No mention of it in the 185 section, but since 185 production started in 1961 I guess it must have had that from the git-go.

The model change breakdown is pretty interesting, here's a link for those who don't have it.
http://www.skywagons.com/modelchgsweb.html

"stabilizer-elevator down spring to improve longitudinal stability "

That is why the later models are much heavier in the elevator than the early ones (plus more lead in the horns). The more you crank in elevator in a turn the more that spring comes into play and the more muscle is needed to hold it there. I would love to un hook it (1975 180J) but I am told it wouldn't be legal.

JamieG wrote:"stabilizer-elevator down spring to improve longitudinal stability "

That is why the later models are much heavier in the elevator than the early ones (plus more lead in the horns). The more you crank in elevator in a turn the more that spring comes into play and the more muscle is needed to hold it there. I would love to un hook it (1975 180J) but I am told it wouldn't be legal.

Is this spring in all 180s after 1960? In my 62 model the elevator doesn't require more force the more I pull back. Same all the way through from full forward to full back, and nothing that I would call heavy.

Bill, you will not need any parts to remove either the aileron rudder interconnect or the rudder centering kit. You will just be removing parts which were added. If you don't have access to a parts manual, I will try to scan and post the drawings from the part manual tomorrow.

I purchased the kit I have in 2006 from I believe Laurent Aviation in Canada, at that time it was the last one available in the world according to the parts department at Yingling, paid $400 plus shipping if I remember correctly. I have been hanging on to it in case I decide to put my up gross 180H project on floats.

If you really feel you need installation drawings to remove you should be able to get them from Cessna Tech Services,

Tim

bat443 wrote:Bill, you will not need any parts to remove either the aileron rudder interconnect or the rudder centering kit. You will just be removing parts which were added. If you don't have access to a parts manual, I will try to scan and post the drawings from the part manual tomorrow.

Tim,

Apologies, I don't have access to a parts manual...but I'll look into it. If it's not too much trouble though, a scan would be really helpful and appreciated.

Thanks again,
Bill

No need to apologize Bill. I tried to post the pdf file of the pages you would like but I am much much better at flying and fixing than using a computer. If you would like to pm me your email address I would be happy to send you the pages as an attachment or will send the complete parts manual for your airplane in digital form. It would be a non current copy as it has not been revised. Sorry I couldn't just include the pages here.

Tim

I downloaded the parts and service manuals here:

http://www.mennen.org/airplanes/Logs46Q/logs.htm

Pinecone, that is a good resource but unfortunately it only goes to 1973 models which though they use the same aileron rudder interconnect as Bill's 1975 does not show the correct rudder centering springs. The 1973-1974 uses the linear rudder centering springs where as Bill's 1975 uses the non-linear system. Thank's for posting it though.

Tim

Mine is a 1976. I guess I better get the right manuals for it.