Backcountry Pilot • Cirrus Salesman: "Watch This..."

Cirrus Salesman: "Watch This..."

A general forum for anything related to flying the backcountry. Please check first if your new topic fits better into a more specific forum before posting.
25 postsPage 1 of 21, 2

Cirrus Salesman: "Watch This..."

Initial findings regarding that Australian chute deployment by the Cirrus salesman. He literally told his customers, "Watch this," before putting the Cirrus into an aggravated and unrecoverable stall necessitating the chute pull.

My favorite part of the article is where he promises he won't ever do it again as a Cirrus salesman. I'll bet not. #-o

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Watch-This-Spin-Results-In-Chute-Pull222558-1.html
RanchPilot offline
User avatar
Posts: 974
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:18 pm
Location: Wyoming
Experience is the knowledge that enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again.

RanchPilot Facebook Community: http://www.facebook.com/ranchpilot777

Re: Cirrus Salesman: "Watch This..."

Methinks they need to spank that guy pretty hard, very publicly.

And although I'm usually the last guy on the block to drop a dime on someone with the authorities, I wouldn't be bothered at all if the US FAA paid Cirrus a visit and rattled a few sabers, so that word trickles down from the bosses that the salesmen need to be reined in quite a bit.

It's not this one idiot salesman as much as it's the 20 or 30 wannabe playboy types that he emboldened to behave that way after they buy the airplane.

An early mentor of mine had once been a salesman for a Cessna dealer, and he used to sell the 172's by taking a customer around a complete pattern takeoff through landing with nothing but the trim wheel, a tiny nudge on a rudder pedal, and throttle. He was selling safety, not stupidity. Things have changed.
EZFlap offline
User avatar
Posts: 2226
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:21 am
.

Re: Cirrus Salesman: "Watch This..."

Totalling a plane to sell a plane seems like a poor business model to me.
River rat offline
Supporter
User avatar
Posts: 750
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:32 pm
Location: Saskatchewan Can.
tricycles are for little girls

Re: Cirrus Salesman: "Watch This..."

The story doesn't say that the guy intentionally entered a spin. In fact it says that he was trying to demonstrate that the aircraft would not enter a spin. Some of the details in the story don't really add up. If someone was trying to demo a spin they probably wouldn't do so from a cross control (approach turn) stall via 25 degree AOB left turn followed by a right departure from controlled flight. Not trying to defend nor hang the guy but there has to be more to the story. Either way he's probably looking for a new job.
Bender offline
User avatar
Posts: 118
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:39 pm
Location: Weatherford
FindMeSpot URL: http://share.findmespot.com/shared/face ... QWUi6dqfEQ
Aircraft: PA-22/20

Re: Cirrus Salesman: "Watch This..."

An "over-confident" salesman intentionally put a Cirrus SR22 into an aggravated stall before he lost control of the airplane and had to pull the parachute handle according to a Australian Transport Safety Bureau report released this week. The salesman, also a flight instructor, told investigators he routinely flew a similar flight profile to demonstrate the aerodynamic and electronic safeguards built into the aircraft to prevent an out-of-control spin. On May 10 of this year, the aircraft beat all those systems and ended up in an unrecoverable spin.


He didn't put it into a spin on purpose, but he proved that all the "aerodynamic and electronic safeguards built into the aircraft to prevent an out-of-control spin" don't always work.

He's the best salesman Cirrus' competitors could have asked for.
RanchPilot offline
User avatar
Posts: 974
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:18 pm
Location: Wyoming
Experience is the knowledge that enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again.

RanchPilot Facebook Community: http://www.facebook.com/ranchpilot777

Re: Cirrus Salesman: "Watch This..."

And, that's why they put the whole airplane parachute on the Cirrus.

It did it's job, neh?

Where's the problem?

MTV
mtv offline
Knowledge Base Author
User avatar
Posts: 10515
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:47 am
Location: Bozeman

Re: Cirrus Salesman: "Watch This..."

So can a Cirrus not recover from a spin?
A1Skinner offline
Supporter
User avatar
Posts: 5186
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:38 am
Location: Eaglesham
FindMeSpot URL: [url:1vzmrq4a]http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=0az97SSJm2Ky58iEMJLqgaAQvVxMnGp6G[/url:1vzmrq4a]
Aircraft: Cessna P206A, AT402/502/602

Re: Cirrus Salesman: "Watch This..."

you can be sure that when you hear someone say "Watch this" the mostly likely outcome is going to be someone getting hurt, or something getting damaged.
corefile offline
Supporter
User avatar
Posts: 637
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:59 pm
Location: San Jose, Ca
Aircraft: Cessna 180 - sold

Re: Cirrus Salesman: "Watch This..."

I can only think of one phrase that's worse. "Hold my beer..."
Bender offline
User avatar
Posts: 118
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:39 pm
Location: Weatherford
FindMeSpot URL: http://share.findmespot.com/shared/face ... QWUi6dqfEQ
Aircraft: PA-22/20

Re: Cirrus Salesman: "Watch This..."

Yes, Cirrus did in fact go through spin testing during their certification program for the aircraft. And, it apparently met certification standards. Cirrus chose to meet the spin recovery requirement by "alternate means of compliance" ie: the all airplane parachute.

Bear in mind that spin certification for a normal category aircraft only requires that the plane recover from a one turn spin (ie: not a fully developed spin) in one additional turn after anti spin control inputs are applied. A one turn spin is really an incipient spin, and as the airplane continues in the spin, it may become unrecoverable.

Don't mess with spins in airplanes that aren't certified for spins.

It sounds like what he did was relatively mild, but it's hard to say what actually happened, or how long he held it in the spin....

An NTSB person once told me that the only way we'll ever really know what happened in an aircraft accident is if none of the pilots survive......

In other words, pilots' testimony before an investigator may occasionally be somewhat unreliable.

MTV
mtv offline
Knowledge Base Author
User avatar
Posts: 10515
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:47 am
Location: Bozeman

Re: Cirrus Salesman: "Watch This..."

Thanks for the explanation MTV.
A1Skinner offline
Supporter
User avatar
Posts: 5186
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:38 am
Location: Eaglesham
FindMeSpot URL: [url:1vzmrq4a]http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=0az97SSJm2Ky58iEMJLqgaAQvVxMnGp6G[/url:1vzmrq4a]
Aircraft: Cessna P206A, AT402/502/602

Re: Cirrus Salesman: "Watch This..."

Might have been a CG problem. I about lost a Decathalon doing a snap roll years ago because of a CG issue.

If a customer wants to see a stall in an airplane I don't see a problem. I've wanted to see the airplane stall In everything I've ever bought. Spin is a different thing. I give the guy some credit for being at 6000 feet too.
Jumpy offline
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:39 am

Re: Cirrus Salesman: "Watch This..."

A1Skinner wrote:So can a Cirrus not recover from a spin?


According to the official findings:

Cirrus engaged in an extensive flight test program to investigate the aircraft stall characteristics
and spin behaviour. The proper spin recovery procedure was found to be brisk movement of the
elevator control to the full down position. This was reported to be an unnatural control movement,
when the nose of the aircraft may already appear to the pilot to be pointing down sharply. Cirrus
determined that the probability of a typical general aviation pilot properly applying the spin
recovery controls was low. The procedure in the event of loss of control of the aircraft as stated in
the above extract of the POH is to activate the CAPS [parachute].
RanchPilot offline
User avatar
Posts: 974
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:18 pm
Location: Wyoming
Experience is the knowledge that enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again.

RanchPilot Facebook Community: http://www.facebook.com/ranchpilot777

Re: Cirrus Salesman: "Watch This..."

RanchPilot wrote:
A1Skinner wrote:So can a Cirrus not recover from a spin?


According to the official findings:

Cirrus engaged in an extensive flight test program to investigate the aircraft stall characteristics
and spin behaviour. The proper spin recovery procedure was found to be brisk movement of the
elevator control to the full down position. This was reported to be an unnatural control movement,
when the nose of the aircraft may already appear to the pilot to be pointing down sharply. Cirrus
determined that the probability of a typical general aviation pilot properly applying the spin
recovery controls was low. The procedure in the event of loss of control of the aircraft as stated in
the above extract of the POH is to activate the CAPS [parachute].


Thanks RP. I guess maybe I'm ignorant to the lack of stall training, as in Canada we are taught to recover from spins in PPL training.
A1Skinner offline
Supporter
User avatar
Posts: 5186
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:38 am
Location: Eaglesham
FindMeSpot URL: [url:1vzmrq4a]http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=0az97SSJm2Ky58iEMJLqgaAQvVxMnGp6G[/url:1vzmrq4a]
Aircraft: Cessna P206A, AT402/502/602

Re: Cirrus Salesman: "Watch This..."

Well, the Cirrus POH seems a little fuzzy on this point. They first say the only demonstrated method of spin recovery is the chute, but they then seem to parse the meaning of "departing controlled flight" by telling you to assess whether the aircraft is in a recoverable spiral/incipient spin or is unrecoverable.

The SR22 Pilot Operating Handbook (POH) stated:
WARNING
In all cases, if the aircraft enters an unusual attitude from which recovery is not expected
before ground impact, immediate deployment of the CAPS is required. The minimum
demonstrated altitude loss for a CAPS deployment from a one-turn spin is 920 feet.
Activation at higher altitudes provides enhanced safety margins for parachute recoveries.
Do not waste time and altitude trying to recover from a spiral/spin before activating CAPS.
The aircraft is not approved for spins, and has not been tested or certified for spin recovery
characteristics. The only approved and demonstrated method of spin recovery is activation
of the Cirrus Airframe Parachute System (CAPS). Because of this, if the aircraft 'departs
controlled flight,' the CAPS must be deployed.

While the stall characteristics of the aircraft make accidental entry into a spin extremely
unlikely, it is possible. Spin entry can be avoided by using good airmanship: coordinated
use of controls in turns, proper airspeed control following the recommendations of this
Handbook, and never abusing the flight controls with accelerated inputs when close to the
stall.

If, at the stall, the controls are misapplied and abused accelerated inputs are made to the
elevator, rudder and/or ailerons, an abrupt wing drop may be felt and a spiral or spin may
be entered. In some cases it may be difficult to determine if the aircraft has entered a spiral
or the beginning of a spin.

If time and altitude permit, determine whether the aircraft is in a recoverable spiral/incipient
spin or is unrecoverable and, therefore, has departed controlled flight.
RanchPilot offline
User avatar
Posts: 974
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:18 pm
Location: Wyoming
Experience is the knowledge that enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again.

RanchPilot Facebook Community: http://www.facebook.com/ranchpilot777

Re: Cirrus Salesman: "Watch This..."

Haha I cant belive this made the news for you guys to!! Was all the talk here when it happened ofcourse.

For anyone wanting to give this guy some sort of credit, believe me he deserves none! Ok he was at 6000 feet..... But he was over 4000 foot mountains, he was also over a small township of houses surrounded by nothing but tiger country. And he ended up landing only 30m (90 feet ish) of 137000 volt high tension power lines.

What a twat!
DrifterDriver offline
User avatar
Posts: 940
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:37 am
Location: GOONENGERRY
"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it..." HENRY FORD

Re: Cirrus Salesman: "Watch This..."

DrifterDriver wrote:Haha I cant belive this made the news for you guys to!! Was all the talk here when it happened ofcourse.

For anyone wanting to give this guy some sort of credit, believe me he deserves none! Ok he was at 6000 feet..... But he was over 4000 foot mountains, he was also over a small township of houses surrounded by nothing but tiger country. And he ended up landing only 30m (90 feet ish) of 137000 volt high tension power lines.

What a twat!



I'll give him some credit. If he'd been at 3000 feet when he did the maneuver he'd be dead. If he'd been over tiger country instead of the small township he'd have been eaten. He missed power lines that would have fried him had he hit 'em. Only an exceptional pilot can avoid being crushed, eaten and toasted all on one flight. :)
Jumpy offline
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:39 am

Re: Cirrus Salesman: "Watch This..."

He was only at 2000', so 3000 is worse??
A1Skinner offline
Supporter
User avatar
Posts: 5186
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:38 am
Location: Eaglesham
FindMeSpot URL: [url:1vzmrq4a]http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=0az97SSJm2Ky58iEMJLqgaAQvVxMnGp6G[/url:1vzmrq4a]
Aircraft: Cessna P206A, AT402/502/602

Re: Cirrus Salesman: "Watch This..."

Y'all are just pissed a cirrus can land shorter then your bush bird.
PAMR MX offline
User avatar
Posts: 469
Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 10:28 pm
Location: Merrill Field

Re: Cirrus Salesman: "Watch This..."

A1Skinner wrote:He was only at 2000', so 3000 is worse??



He's saying MSL. You're talking AGL. Either way, I know where you can get a lightly used Cirrus with minor damage for cheap #-o
Timberwolf offline
User avatar
Posts: 193
Joined: Sun May 11, 2014 1:24 pm
Location: Panhandle
Aircraft: RV-6 with Glass and too much power
Murphy Moose M-14

DISPLAY OPTIONS

Next
25 postsPage 1 of 21, 2

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 31 guests

Latest Features

Latest Knowledge Base