corefile wrote:

CamTom12 wrote:Is anyone good enough with computer stuff to tie this guy into one of those Stratux boxes?

https://www.amazon.com/Keyestudio-Alcoh ... r+portable

I don't know if I'm reading the specs correctly but it says:

Detectable concentration: 300-10000ppm CO

If that means it does not detect bellow 300 ppm... isn't this thing pretty much worthless?

Yup, good call. I didn't read the specs.

But it's not just MY life that I am risking if I decide to trust a BigBox store "special" $20 unit that is known to alarm only at levels far above those that are known to adversely impact my ability to fly the airplane. (Or worse yet, one of the "spot" CO detectors that have been proven over and over to be almost totally useless!)

If I do decide to accept that risk for myself, shouldn't my passenger briefing at least include the topic of how to recognize symptoms of CO poisoning, and what to do if any of those symptoms are experienced in flight? I would think this might be a good idea, because I've met very few people (other than medical professionals and fire fighters) who have even a clue about the symptoms of CO poisoning...

In nice weather, when much of our flying takes place, we mostly fly with fresh air ventilation (or windows) open, the risk of CO poisoning is reasonably low. But in cold-weather flying, when the fresh air vents are closed and the cabin heat is in use, the risk of CO poisoning is much higher. Sadly, not everyone experiences the symptoms the same way, and some apparently don't experience (or at least don't recognize) the symptoms at all - or until the problem is quite severe.

I've flown in enough light airplanes with leaky exhaust systems (easily detected by a quality CO detector) to know it is not an uncommon problem. One of the bonuses of a really good CO detector is that it will often help diagnose such exhaust problems earlier, so they can be fixed while still relatively small and inexpensive. Might even pay for itself, in addition to potentially saving some lives.

Those are just some of the reasons I was willing to spend the extra $180 on a CO Experts detector that includes self-tests to confirm it is operating correctly, provides low battery warnings, and can detect (and alert on) lower levels of CO where I can take measures to mitigate the risk well before any symptoms might be observed.

All pilots must accept some degree of risk (things over which we have little control) in order to fly. However, I do everything within my power to mitigate the risks that I DO have some control over, and avoiding CO poisoning by using a good detector is one of the latter.

As realized by the original post, you may not recognize initial symptoms.
Even if you do recognize symptoms, it may be too late to safely land the airplane.

Opening the windows may not bring in fresh air, you might just suck more CO into the cabin. A cracked exhaust can get you CO poisoning in a Stearman (if only they had windows to open)

The heater is not the only source of CO leaks so turning the heater off might just make you cold as you die.

The half life of CO in the blood stream is THREE TO FOUR HOURS at sea level. Meaning, at sea level it takes three or four hours to reduce the levels by half. Thinking you can just open the windows and feel better is foolish.

Is the risk of Carbon Monoxide poisoning really the place you want to save a hundred dollars in aviation?

The survivor from the Mooney wreck, the story that began this thread, is trying to get the word out, and get people to take action to prevent a repeat. He contacted a CO monitor company and arranged a discount. It's a good deal! The most robust design I've seen. Do note, however, that the sensors have calendar life limits.

https://sensorcon.com/pages/aviation

Use the discount code aircraft2017 at checkout and receive a 20% discount. I ordered the pro version for the feature that allows you to set your own alarm limits. They will go as low as 5ppm. Better than the home improvement centre units, at a price lower than Aeromedix, with a tougher case.

CamTom12 wrote:Is anyone good enough with computer stuff to tie this guy into one of those Stratux boxes?

https://www.amazon.com/Keyestudio-Alcoh ... r+portable

Not sure about Stratus specifically, but I am actually working on technology to give clear alerts to pilots about CO and a whole list of other bad things that can affect flight outcomes. Patents are filed, more to follow. This is probably a receptive group when get to needing beta testers.

BTW I am also ordering one of the SensorCon pro-level devices with the pump kit option, that way if there is exposure I may be able to isolate the source better and deal with it. $167 with the discount code is a great deal.

I don't recall ever seeing one of those press-on CO stickers that has turned black. How black do they get? How dark would indicate a dangerous situation?
-DP

denalipilot wrote:I don't recall ever seeing one of those press-on CO stickers that has turned black. How black do they get? How dark would indicate a dangerous situation?
-DP

Black. And it happens fast. It goes from dark orange to dark brown in perhaps 5 seconds when directly exposed to tailpipe emissions from a cat-free truck. It went from orange to almost black in about 10 minutes after takeoff with a 1 inch hairline crack in a Pacer muffler.

lesuther wrote:

denalipilot wrote:I don't recall ever seeing one of those press-on CO stickers that has turned black. How black do they get? How dark would indicate a dangerous situation?
-DP

Black. And it happens fast. It goes from dark orange to dark brown in perhaps 5 seconds when directly exposed to tailpipe emissions from a cat-free truck. It went from orange to almost black in about 10 minutes after takeoff with a 1 inch hairline crack in a Pacer muffler.

Very helpful- thanks!

Many years ago in a 172 I saw one go from light orange to dark brown while flying over NYC due to pollution.

And yet those stickers are about as useless as tits on a boar when it comes to actually warning you in time to do something about it. IMHO they're a waste of money (albeit not much, since they're so cheap), but more importantly, they give a false sense of security that you're really protecting yourself from the insidiousness of CO poisoning, because you're not.

Cary

Last year - 2 days before flying out to Winifred, MT to the Missouri Breaks, I discovered broken exhaust studs and leaking exhaust on my 180. My CO detector - stick on kind - showed no indication. I don't trust them. I don't know how much exhaust was getting into the cabin - but I'm sure some was.

I have the chemical type and an audible solid state unit. Having had two run-ins with CO, one pretty bad and the other asymptomatic, I don't fly without both, particularly while flying equipment quite a bit older than myself. The chemical type indicated both incidents (back in the days before I had an electronic detector). Obviously, they haven't worked for everybody. As inexpensive as the portable electric units are, it is a worthwhile item.

I agree on the stick on type; useless.
My concern with the audible ones is that are they going to catch your attention with a noise cancelling headset on?

Tom

I find it interesting that in this discussion, nobody has mentioned anything about avoiding CO exposure, as opposed to detecting it.

Proper maintenance requires a careful and thorough inspection of the exhaust system at each inspection. No guarantee there, of course, and CO detectors are invaluable, but prevention is key. Having been "gassed" severely, I tend to be insistent on good inspections.

MTV

Cary wrote:And yet those stickers are about as useless as tits on a boar when it comes to actually warning you in time to do something about it. IMHO they're a waste of money (albeit not much, since they're so cheap), but more importantly, they give a false sense of security that you're really protecting yourself from the insidiousness of CO poisoning, because you're not....

.
I disagree. had one change color in my old C170, I immediately opened the vents.
Pulled the cowl off when I got home, had a crack in the muffler just inside the heat shroud.
I know they don't buzz, have blinkie lights, or better yet send a text to your iPhone--
but if they do what supposed to do (change color when CO is present),
and in my experience they have, then they're doing their job.
Just remember, they're time limited-- I think they say to replace every 90 days.
I've seen some that were years out of date in other people's airplanes-
no wonder that they're getting a bad rep.
.

hotrod180 wrote:

Cary wrote:And yet those stickers are about as useless as tits on a boar when it comes to actually warning you in time to do something about it. IMHO they're a waste of money (albeit not much, since they're so cheap), but more importantly, they give a false sense of security that you're really protecting yourself from the insidiousness of CO poisoning, because you're not....

.
I disagree. had one change color in my old C170, I immediately opened the vents.
Pulled the cowl off when I got home, had a crack in the muffler just inside the heat shroud.
I know they don't buzz, have blinkie lights, or better yet send a text to your iPhone--
but if they do what supposed to do (change color when CO is present),
and in my experience they have, then they're doing their job.
Just remember, they're time limited-- I think they say to replace every 90 days.
I've seen some that were years out of date in other people's airplanes-
no wonder that they're getting a bad rep.
.

All of the trainers we had at Elmendorf AFB when I was first learning had those stickies, all were kept "current", and yet we had a couple of times when people would get sick from CO, fortunately close to home--and the stickies didn't show a thing. I'm glad yours worked for you, but I would never count on them. They are simply unreliable!

Cary

a3holerman wrote:I agree on the stick on type; useless.
My concern with the audible ones is that are they going to catch your attention with a noise cancelling headset on?

Tom

The Pocket CO has a very bright flashing light on the top of it. Where mine's mounted, it's hard to miss. But you're right, I can't hear the beep, although it's pretty loud, except during the preflight when the engine is just idling.

Cary

Pinecone wrote:The survivor from the Mooney wreck, the story that began this thread, is trying to get the word out, and get people to take action to prevent a repeat. He contacted a CO monitor company and arranged a discount. It's a good deal! The most robust design I've seen. Do note, however, that the sensors have calendar life limits.

https://sensorcon.com/pages/aviation

Use the discount code aircraft2017 at checkout and receive a 20% discount. I ordered the pro version for the feature that allows you to set your own alarm limits. They will go as low as 5ppm. Better than the home improvement centre units, at a price lower than Aeromedix, with a tougher case.

I purchased one of their 'Sensorcon Pro' industrial models a few months ago when this discount popped up, and have flown in a few planes with it now including my own. It reads instantly, and I have noticed some interesting things. For example in a newer 172, with exception of sitting on the ground with the windows open, it generally reads zero in flight. However I've noticed constant low level CO in my own old 182 in flight, and enough on the ground to cause it to low-level alarm. The brief ground exposure won't do much, but hours of 7-8ppm in flight might be concerning over time.

I was also able to do some experimentation yesterday, since it does respond immediately. I had both top (wing root) vents open the whole time, and the sensor placed on the copilot's side chart pocket. With cabin air on, ~7ppm was pretty steadily reported. Wondering if I had an exhaust leak coming in through cabin air, I closed that off - and it rose to mid 20's! Cabin heat had no effect, so at least that's solid.

This kit does come with the sniffer probe that I haven't used yet, but what this seems to be telling me is that I have an airframe leak pulling in CO. Fiddling with cabin air can have a dramatic effect on concentration as well. When I was flying it back from Boise in February, OAT was below zero F in some places so I didn't have a whole lot of frigid external air coming in; I was feeling weird a couple times, but figured it was because I also needed to eat something - in retrospect, I probably had some CO going on, and being at 12-13k didn't help things. I did open the vents full when I realized I had related symptoms though.

Playing with the probe may help me isolate the leak, however step one is replacing all of the shitty door and window seals (already on my list anyway). Knots2U appears to have some nicely made upgrades in that department. I also need to double check the exhaust header bolt torque just in case there are fumes in the engine bay leaking in. If the problem still persists, I find a willing copilot and go up for a test flight where I use the probe to see exactly where the leak is entering the cabin.

Without this simple device I would have no idea what was going on, or what criteria made it better or worse - a dot sticker wouldn't tell me this stuff. With the discount it was minimally impactive to my budget, especially in context of flying. This has quickly become one of my favorite safety devices, because it has identified that there's a problem before it turned deadly. This thing was $127 with the above mentioned discount (which is still available!), and it has already proven its value within a few uses. For anyone on the fence still, I absolutely endorse this product and recommend it.

For you gear heads out there, I will give you a pirep on my own CO detector.

I installed a EI CGR-30P. This is an amazing engine gauge for the size and price. It has an add on CO detector that reads in ppm and you can set the alarm thresholds. I have a panel annunciator light that will get my attention if any alarm thresholds are met. There are many times when I'm warming up the engine at idle with the wind just so, and I will get a warning light that alerts me to the presence of CO. Usually I just adjust windows to clear it. I haven't had any CO in flight, but it would be easy to recognize if it were to happen.

If anyone is going to upgrade to a new digital engine analyzer, make sure you get a CO detector upgrade. It is well worth the additional expense in my opinion.

Squash wrote:For you gear heads out there, I will give you a pirep on my own CO detector.

I installed a EI CGR-30P. This is an amazing engine gauge for the size and price. It has an add on CO detector that reads in ppm and you can set the alarm thresholds. I have a panel annunciator light that will get my attention if any alarm thresholds are met. There are many times when I'm warming up the engine at idle with the wind just so, and I will get a warning light that alerts me to the presence of CO. Usually I just adjust windows to clear it. I haven't had any CO in flight, but it would be easy to recognize if it were to happen.

If anyone is going to upgrade to a new digital engine analyzer, make sure you get a CO detector upgrade. It is well worth the additional expense in my opinion.

Squash- thanks for the tip. I have had a CGR-30P for a few years and this is the first I've heard of the CO add-on. I definitely plan to look into it.
-DP