Hi. I'm evaluating the costs to convert a 1964 Cessna 150D to tailwheel and swap out the O-200 with an O-320-E2D. Wondering who here might have done this and could offer some advice from their experience. Specifically....

I've talked to David Lowe and plan on using him to do the tailwheel conversion. Cost is $8,000. Thoughts?

I've traded emails with two of the STC holders for the O-320 conversion. There are three available:

Aero Upgrade LLC
DelAir
Bush Conversions (Avcon)

Question #1
Aero Upgrades communicated that theirs is the original O-320-E2D STC and others are only derivatives. So question one is, does it matter? Are one of these STC's / companies better than the others?

Question #2
Without purchasing an STC I can't get a detailed grasp of what is involved. Aero Upgrades said that most of the work is fabricating / modifying the engine mount. Estimates to complete the STC work range from 70-300 A&P hours. That alone could add $30,000 to the project! Has anyone done this? If so, what can you offer from your experience?

Question #3
Does anyone happen to have a low to mid time O-320-E2D stashed away and want to offload it cheaply? LOL But seriously...

Here is my advice.. and you may not like to hear it…

BUT

The amount of money you will invest in the airplane will be more than whatever you could get back out of it.. Especially on a Cessna 150… BUT That also goes for most other airplanes make or model that you would do an engine STC upgrade or landing gear conversion… there are very few exceptions…

You would be far better off and ahead to sell your current airplane, take that money and some of the money you would have used to do the work on it and buy one that has already been done…

I gave that same advice to a friend wanting to do an 0-360 conversion to his 170… He sold the 170 with 0-300 and bought one with an 0-360 and spent literally 5 thousand more than what he sold the old one for instead of the 30 thousand or more to convert it..

Just my 2C

Brian

What Brian said, he's 100 % right.

That said, some folks really like the challenge, and to have an airplane that is exactly what THEY want. So, contrary to what Brian says, an engine conversion may or may not fit someone's idea of "The right thing to do".

BUT, this isn't just an engine conversion...it's converting a Cessna 150 to tailwheel AND an engine conversion. Both those are extremely expensive processes.

The worst part of this proposal, however, is that at the end of the day, once both conversions are done, you'll have an airplane with very little legal useful load. I've known a couple of people who had these converted airplanes, and neither was legal with full fuel and two "standard" people.

So, you could fly the thing around by yourself, you could fly with minimal gas (and bear in mind the O-320 uses a fair bit more gas per hour than an O-200), or you could just ignore the regulations regarding loading.

Here's what I'd do in your shoes: Find a decent Cessna 170B, and buy it. Fly it till the engine is due for overhaul, and take the huge amount of money you would have spent on the tailwheel and engine conversion on that 150, and convert that 170 to a bigger engine. An O-360, a Continental IO-360 or even a Franklin.

You'll have a good back country airplane that was originally built and designed to be a tailwheel plane, and with a big engine, you'll also have a plane that has some significant value, compared to the 150/150, which is not going to have much value on the market.

Find a good 170. You won't regret it, and you'll be able to take your friend or friends places, and explore.

MTV

mtv wrote:What Brian said, he's 100 % right.

That said, some folks really like the challenge, and to have an airplane that is exactly what THEY want. So, contrary to what Brian says, an engine conversion may or may not fit someone's idea of "The right thing to do".

BUT, this isn't just an engine conversion...it's converting a Cessna 150 to tailwheel AND an engine conversion. Both those are extremely expensive processes.

The worst part of this proposal, however, is that at the end of the day, once both conversions are done, you'll have an airplane with very little legal useful load. I've known a couple of people who had these converted airplanes, and neither was legal with full fuel and two "standard" people.

So, you could fly the thing around by yourself, you could fly with minimal gas (and bear in mind the O-320 uses a fair bit more gas per hour than an O-200), or you could just ignore the regulations regarding loading.

Here's what I'd do in your shoes: Find a decent Cessna 170B, and buy it. Fly it till the engine is due for overhaul, and take the huge amount of money you would have spent on the tailwheel and engine conversion on that 150, and convert that 170 to a bigger engine. An O-360, a Continental IO-360 or even a Franklin.

You'll have a good back country airplane that was originally built and designed to be a tailwheel plane, and with a big engine, you'll also have a plane that has some significant value, compared to the 150/150, which is not going to have much value on the market.

Find a good 170. You won't regret it, and you'll be able to take your friend or friends places, and explore.

MTV

At the risk of repeat what's all ready been said, just read MTV's post twice and that will cover any comments I might have added to the conversation.

mtv wrote:What Brian said, he's 100 % right.

That said, some folks really like the challenge, and to have an airplane that is exactly what THEY want. So, contrary to what Brian says, an engine conversion may or may not fit someone's idea of "The right thing to do".

BUT, this isn't just an engine conversion...it's converting a Cessna 150 to tailwheel AND an engine conversion. Both those are extremely expensive processes.

The worst part of this proposal, however, is that at the end of the day, once both conversions are done, you'll have an airplane with very little legal useful load. I've known a couple of people who had these converted airplanes, and neither was legal with full fuel and two "standard" people.

So, you could fly the thing around by yourself, you could fly with minimal gas (and bear in mind the O-320 uses a fair bit more gas per hour than an O-200), or you could just ignore the regulations regarding loading.

Here's what I'd do in your shoes: Find a decent Cessna 170B, and buy it. Fly it till the engine is due for overhaul, and take the huge amount of money you would have spent on the tailwheel and engine conversion on that 150, and convert that 170 to a bigger engine. An O-360, a Continental IO-360 or even a Franklin.

You'll have a good back country airplane that was originally built and designed to be a tailwheel plane, and with a big engine, you'll also have a plane that has some significant value, compared to the 150/150, which is not going to have much value on the market.

Find a good 170. You won't regret it, and you'll be able to take your friend or friends places, and explore.

MTV

Not to beat a dead horse but MTV’s added comments are spot on…

We have done two of these over the years.. the first one was a 150 Aerobat… He flew that airplane over gross all the time… second one was a 150 that already had the engine conversion… was owned by the 150-152 type club owner…

If you must have the 150… the most economically way to convert to tail wheel is to have one that already has the engine conversion… That in itself is the #1 most expensive part of it IMO… So, to go along with my first statement to sell your current one and get one already done, you could look for just an 0-320 powered aircraft in your search…

The 170 though is an extremely sought out aircraft.. If you can find one for the right deal don’t hesitate and snatch it… One of my customers just sold his highly modified 0-360 powered 170 for 135K… [emoji15]… They are one of the few airplanes that the value just seems to go up on..

Brian

Thank you all for your comments and advice. Much appreciated!

Some have said their new empty weight with O-320 is as little as 1,100 (https://backcountrypilot.org/forum/del-air-11915. Is that accurate? Assuming it is, couldn't that mean with the Del-Air gross weight increase STC (https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgstc.nsf/0/8fa6dda00415c2b0862570b40077eeca/$FILE/SA4795SW.pdf) there might be a meaningful useful load available? The Del-Air STC doesn't say specifically what the increase is but even if it's to just 1,700 that would be a useful available of 500 or 600lbs.

As far as value, I'm no expert but if you see how hipster pilots (like me lol) talk about the elusive 150D TW on social media it could be assumed that it would be a popular plane. That said, my calculations are I'd be in it for around $50k and that is a lot of cheddar.

Appreciate y'all. Now tear what I said apart!

blehman wrote:Thank you all for your comments and advice. Much appreciated!

Some have said their new empty weight with O-320 is as little as 1,100 (https://backcountrypilot.org/forum/del-air-11915. Is that accurate? Assuming it is, couldn't that mean with the Del-Air gross weight increase STC (https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgstc.nsf/0/8fa6dda00415c2b0862570b40077eeca/$FILE/SA4795SW.pdf) there might be a meaningful useful load available? The Del-Air STC doesn't say specifically what the increase is but even if it's to just 1,700 that would be a useful available of 500 or 600lbs.

As far as value, I'm no expert but if you see how hipster pilots (like me lol) talk about the elusive 150D TW on social media it could be assumed that it would be a popular plane. That said, my calculations are I'd be in it for around $50k and that is a lot of cheddar.

Appreciate y'all. Now tear what I said apart!

I would believe that empty weight, as my 150 lowe conversion taildragger weighs 990 lbs with the O200. I agree, do the del air stc and gain the extra useful load. And if it were me, I'd also add the del air long range 40 gallon tanks. Now you'll have a big engine 150 which can actually go places! Modify and have fun, it'll be one sweet plane!

-Joe

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

A friend recently owned one of these with, I believe, the Del-Air conversion. Great performer as 150s go, but everything that has been said about limited range and useful load is spot on. His was one of several converted a couple decades ago, some of which had an up-gross STC, and some of which didn't. Try as he might, he simply could not obtain the up-gross STC in today's climate. IIRC that STC involved no modifications other than maybe a placard- so amounted purely to a piece of paper, and would have added around 150 lbs to the gross legal weight, but it was straight-up not available for love or money.
-DP

blehman wrote:Thank you all for your comments and advice. Much appreciated!

Some have said their new empty weight with O-320 is as little as 1,100 (https://backcountrypilot.org/forum/del-air-11915. Is that accurate? Assuming it is, couldn't that mean with the Del-Air gross weight increase STC (https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgstc.nsf/0/8fa6dda00415c2b0862570b40077eeca/$FILE/SA4795SW.pdf) there might be a meaningful useful load available? The Del-Air STC doesn't say specifically what the increase is but even if it's to just 1,700 that would be a useful available of 500 or 600lbs.

As far as value, I'm no expert but if you see how hipster pilots (like me lol) talk about the elusive 150D TW on social media it could be assumed that it would be a popular plane. That said, my calculations are I'd be in it for around $50k and that is a lot of cheddar.

Appreciate y'all. Now tear what I said apart!

Do the math: Useful load includes fuel, btw. An O-320 is going to burn ~ 7 gph, so if you carry 20 gallons of gas, you’ll have two hours and a good reserve. 20 gallons weighs 180 pounds. Now, you have at best (and frankly I think it’s dreaming, but maybe) 600 - 180, or 420 pounds for occupants, survival gear camping gear, etc.

And I seriously doubt you’d sell a 150/150 for $50 K, unless it was a REAL peach.

BUT, as Brian noted, 170s are in demand and big engine 170s are selling at premiums and fast. It MAY be one of the few planes you could do an engine conversion on AND get your money back. They are selling fast and for a lot of money. AND, it’s already a tailwheel type.

If you want to be under water in a plane with very limited utility, stick with the 150. But frankly, you might come out ahead in the right 170 B…..

MTV

I used to own a 1964 C150D with the "Texas Taildragger" t/w conversion, sold it to buy my C180.
It also had their O-320 conversion, and 40 gallon long range tanks.
The STC's were sold by Aircraft Conversion Technologies at the time,
I believe DelAir owns all three nowadays.

Standard gross weight for the C150D is 1600, the 320 conversion bumped it to 1760.
Mine was heavy at close to 1250, so about 510 useful.
2 people at 170# each + light baggage + 25 gallons fuel maxed it out.

I paid $36K for it in 2008, sold it for about the same amount in 2014.
Fun, but a bit limited on load, about 4 hours endurance at 125 mph so about 500 mile range.
It was a fun to fly airplane -- short takeoff & landing, sporty handling, relatively fast.
I used to do aileron rolls with it pretty regularly.
I enjoyed flying it, but now that I have the 180 I don't miss it.

I've never heard of Aero Upgrades, but I have heard of Bush / Avcon in Udall KS.
Based on what I've heard, I don't think I'd want to do any business with them.
Nuff said.

Like Brian pointed out, you'd be way ahead financially & time wise to buy one already converted
rather than doing the conversions yourself (or hiring it done).

I think a C150 converted with C140 parts and an IO240 would be a pretty cool airplane.

C180_guy wrote:I think a C150 converted with C140 parts and an IO240 would be a pretty cool airplane.

Maybe…..I recently saw an invoice (so actual sale price) for an IO-240 for a Diamond Eclipse at a local school: $51,000. Go figure.

MTV

I’ve been watching 150/150’s on Barnstormers, TAP, etc. for awhile. There always seems to be several for sale at any time.

I’ve flown one belonging to a local flying club and it performed well. I think a 150/150 would be a great trainer for my daughter in a few years. We are near 5000’ msl and the density altitude would eliminate (literally) any O-200 150’s.

blehman wrote:Thank you all for your comments and advice. Much appreciated!

Some have said their new empty weight with O-320 is as little as 1,100 (https://backcountrypilot.org/forum/del-air-11915. Is that accurate? Assuming it is, couldn't that mean with the Del-Air gross weight increase STC (https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgstc.nsf/0/8fa6dda00415c2b0862570b40077eeca/$FILE/SA4795SW.pdf) there might be a meaningful useful load available? The Del-Air STC doesn't say specifically what the increase is but even if it's to just 1,700 that would be a useful available of 500 or 600lbs.

As far as value, I'm no expert but if you see how hipster pilots (like me lol) talk about the elusive 150D TW on social media it could be assumed that it would be a popular plane. That said, my calculations are I'd be in it for around $50k and that is a lot of cheddar.

Appreciate y'all. Now tear what I said apart!

I can help with this, I have a 150b with a 0-320 still a tricycle tho. I have spent the last year dumping as much weight as I can out of the plane. Lightweight starter and alternator, complete rewire to get rid of any extra, bare vfr panel with just a ipad mini, no interior at all except for seats, anything that was heavy that could get modified for less weight was done. My plane has a horton stol and long range tanks and I did add a a liitle weight back with a hd nose gear and 700 mains. I reweighed it on scales and the empty weight is 1193lbs and that incudes the 10lbs of ballast I had to add to the tail to get the empty cg in range. So basically on paper its a one person plane.

Before all this work it had a full ifr panel and interior and the w&b I got with the plane said it weighed 1050lbs

I have a "friend" that says it would still fly perfectly with full gas and 2 people and still do 1500fpm climb out at sea level.

They are great planes and I plan on keeping this plane forever, for just flying around and having fun you cant beat it. I pull the power back to 2100 at cruise and its just as fast as a stock 150 and burning the same amount of gas and its quiet and smooth.

So a straight tail, tailwheel 150hp 150?

So basically a mini 180?

Shit, if the paint and everything is also nice I’d think tons of folks would pay decent money for that.

NineThreeKilo wrote:So a straight tail, tailwheel 150hp 150?

So basically a mini 180?

Shit, if the paint and everything is also nice I’d think tons of folks would pay decent money for that.

That's my hunch too from the sentiment on social media!

Reality is reality, my budget is $50k and I just don't think I can make it work.

Thanks everyone! I'm headed to the C120/140 forums to see if I can find a nice 120/140 with a C90. The straight tail, tailwheel, O-320 will forever and always be my unicorn.

Don't listen to the naysayers. I say do it, document it here, and call me when you pass through Denver.

All of this advice is based on my own entertainment.

I think Mr. Lowes quote to convert it is a steal, and I'd jump all over that if I was doing one. He just rebuilt a buddy's 140, I'm looking forward to seeing it.

I've got a few hours in a 64 150/150. It was a ton of fun. Last time I flew it was with my wife when she was doing her BFR. 2 of us and full patroller tanks (Why would anyone want 40 gallons in a 150?) and it climbed out of Denver like a 180.

AEROPOD wrote:Don't listen to the naysayers. I say do it, document it here, and call me when you pass through Denver.

All of this advice is based on my own entertainment.

I think Mr. Lowes quote to convert it is a steal, and I'd jump all over that if I was doing one. He just rebuilt a buddy's 140, I'm looking forward to seeing it.

I've got a few hours in a 64 150/150. It was a ton of fun. Last time I flew it was with my wife when she was doing her BFR. 2 of us and full patroller tanks (Why would anyone want 40 gallons in a 150?) and it climbed out of Denver like a 180.

blehman wrote:...... The straight tail, tailwheel, O-320 will forever and always be my unicorn.

Unfortunately as far as I know the straight tails (1959 C150 thru 1963 C150C) are stuck with the factory 1500# gross weight.
The 320 conversion on my 1964 D model bumped the gross from 1600 to 1760, which it sorely needed with it's 250# empty weight.

As far as "who would want 40 gallon tanks in a 150?"......
mine burned about 8.5 gph, with the stock tanks that's <3 hours endurance with zero reserve.
Fine around town or for short hops, but somewhat limiting on trips.
40 gallons gives you 4 hours endurance plus reserves.

I fly a 150/150 fairly regularly here at 5280. It's pretty anemic still with 150hp and very little useful load. Like with full fuel and two small pilots you will be over gross. It's the cheapest plane available for rent here - and it's always available - that tells you something.

It's a waste of a lot of money what you are talking about.

if you want to convert something - buy a cheap tri-pacer and convert that to the O-320. Still a waste of money but you'll have a far more useful airplane.

onthegas1 wrote:I’ve been watching 150/150’s on Barnstormers, TAP, etc. for awhile. There always seems to be several for sale at any time.

I’ve flown one belonging to a local flying club and it performed well. I think a 150/150 would be a great trainer for my daughter in a few years. We are near 5000’ msl and the density altitude would eliminate (literally) any O-200 150’s.