I'm anticipating a purchase (some vintage of pre-restart 182, but immaterial to this topic) next spring, and most of what I'm seeing out there are not yet upgraded to ADS-B. I assume this is because the owners don't wish to dump $6-7k into a $40-50k airplane just to keep it legal, and I can understand that, but it's also some leverage for me hopefully as it's a major expense that will happen within 24 months.

I also see optimistically high-priced older aircraft with ADS-B, though usually with many more things modernized and reflected in the price. The avionics delta at that point is so large that I'm having a hard time figuring out what the ADS-B piece of that alone should do to the price.

For those buying planes right now, do you use lack of ADS-B to drive the price down a bit more, or are today's typical prices reflective of that already? I'm thinking that while the owner may not want to drop several grand on the plane and eat it on the sale, I don't really wish to either, so there should at least be some sort of middle ground to be had unless it's already a smoking deal. Am I way off base?

For my price range this is really the only modern upgrade I'm weighing into the equation this way. Everything else is more in the generic "works / doesn't work" category for negotiation purposes.

Thanks for the responses in advance!

I'm starting to look at options for my new-to-me '63 182 and if I go with ADSB it will be an add-on to the Ipad.

Including the Ipad, I'd expect to pay less than $1600 for a decent system so I wouldn't have put much value in the feature as I was evaluating planes to buy.

http://ipadpilotnews.com/2015/10/ads-b-receiver-buy-2/

I don't see much need for it in the areas near home where I fly, so I'm trying to decide if I want it for my trips into the USA.

Yeah, problem with that is the FAA requirement for ABS-B Out by 2020, which I will absolutely need as I fly within the DEN Mode-C veil every time I take off. The receiver only method only works for pilots outside of that requirement, but anyone flying around here definitely needs it.

However if you can get away with ADS-B In only, go for it! You'll save a ton of cash. You do miss some information in terms of traffic details (it's only partial picture without ADS-R participation which requires Out+In) but it's still a tremendous resource.

Albravo lives on the other side of the border where ADS-B is yet to be required; therefore, ADS-B In is all he needs and can do it on an iPad and anything else he wishes. Just we in the Good Ol' Us of A that has to fork out multi-thousands of $$ to make the airways safer for commercial traffic.

TomD wrote:Albravo lives on the other side of the border where ADS-B is yet to be required; therefore, ADS-B In is all he needs and can do it on an iPad and anything else he wishes. Just we in the Good Ol' Us of A that has to fork out multi-thousands of $$ to make the airways safer for commercial traffic.

Yeah I figured he had the benefit of geographical advantage. Even in the USA you don't need ADS-B Out if you never fly in certain airspace, but that effectively blocks numerous areas of the country, so it's really not that great of an option.

It does have some benefits for us little guys too, I just want to make sure I reap the best financial position possible from having to install those benefits, as it were. Hopefully some people here have some insight on the pre-purchase value if it's installed vs not.

Colopilot

""For those buying planes right now, do you use lack of ADS-B to drive the price down a bit more, or are today's typical prices reflective of that already? I'm thinking that while the owner may not want to drop several grand on the plane and eat it on the sale, I don't really wish to either, so there should at least be some sort of middle ground to be had unless it's already a smoking deal. Am I way off base?""

Never forget that someday you'll be on the other end of that equation and you've got ask yourself how you'll feel when the other guy tries to "drive the price down".

Figure out what's fair... and go with that. ADS-B Out would enhance a sale price, but not depress it from my perspective. That might change in 2019.

YMMV-
Gunny

Colopilot,

If I were selling an airplane and it didn't have ADS-B out installed, and you tried to beat me up on price, I'd happily tell you to find another airplane, and hang up.

Not everyone needs or wants ADS-B. You live in an area where it's required, so you have little choice (though a no electric J-3 would work), but frankly, a lot of pilots in this country still won't be required to have ADS-B out installed after the "mandate" kicks in.

So, my opinion is this: If you need ADS-B out, and you're in the market for a plane, plan on installing the ADS-B box after you buy the plane, or if you find a plane with it already installed, plan to pay for it. A fair price for an airplane shouldn't be decreased just because it doesn't have some piece of equipment.

Find a fairly priced airplane, in good condition, and buy it. But don't think you're going to beat an owner up on price simply because it isn't ADS-B equipped. Lots of country out there where it's not required.

MTV

As a guy who will have a couple of CESSNA 170s going up for sale in the next couple of weeks, if you think that beating the price down is part of purchasing a plane please do not respond to my offers to sell at a fair price. If you want an airplane with a certain piece of equipment, look for airplanes with it installed, don't expect me to discount my airplane so you can have it equipped the way you want it. Remember ADS B is only mandated for operations in certain areas. It would be different if it was an AD which had or would render the aircraft unairworthy.

Tim

When I sense that a prospective buyer is going to start trying to beat me up on the price, I quickly tell them that this deal is not for them and they just need to find something less that fits their budget. I don't have a problem with a serious buyer asking me straight up what it's going to take to do the deal, but people who try to use nit picky items in the prebuy get shown the door. Unless it's an unknown show stopper, the agreed upon price stands otherwise they can hit the road. If you are looking at an aircraft and it doesn't have the equipment you desire, you add it at your expense or find another that has what you need and pay accordingly for it. I think you will find if you try to beat people up about not having ADS, quite quickly aircraft will be withdrawn from you.

My view is strictly from the potential seller standpoint, because I'm not going to be a buyer ever again at this late stage in my life. But someday I'll have to sell my dear little airplane, and I'll want to get the most I can out of it. That being said, I have so much more into it than I can ever get out of it, that I have to look at its ADS-B Out installation as more of good curb appeal, making it easier to sell as close as I am to the Denver Class B Mode C veil--it's nearly impossible to fly south without running into it, as it's only 4 miles from the KGXY runway. I don't think it would add much to whatever my airplane eventually sells for.

Arguably that an airplane already has ADS-B Out, especially as January 1, 2020, comes closer and closer, the reasonable value of that installation should enhance the selling price, if the buyer is going to need to install it anyway. Just as arguably, though, it shouldn't enhance the price more than the cost of one of the least expensive ADS-B Out solutions. So if the seller had opted for one of the high priced solutions just because he wanted to, he shouldn't expect the purchaser to be willing to pay the full cost.

On the other hand, if the airplane is going to be used by a potential buyer in an area in which ADS-B Out won't be an advantage or required, then that the airplane does or does not have it shouldn't have any effect on the price.

Cary

First of all, thanks for the replies and feedback. It seems the tone of my initial post was interpreted differently than intended as a few of you got defensive, so let me briefly restate this a bit:

I'm not looking to beat up anyone on price. If anything I am usually the one giving up the better deal on things. But I do feel it's reasonable to wonder if the presence of a several thousand dollar upgrade should affect the cost of a used aircraft, especially when that upgrade is mandated by the FAA for many of us. Some pilots won't ever need it, but if you need a transponder today you'll need ADS-B in about 3 years to keep flying in the same airspace, and that does encompass a lot of people and places (like the entire US over 10k and 2500 AGL). I'm just researching and asking questions so I can make an educated choice. I've seen planes that are around what I consider to be a baseline price, but others that leave me scratching my head why they are so high, and it seemed like this could be one of the reasons - but apparently not. If you took offense to my original post, please read this reply and reinterpret as necessary.

As to the question of whether absence of it has much effect at all, it appears the answer is mostly no at this point in time. There should be some potential increased value if it's there - the perceived value of which may differ between buyer and seller, much like the plane itself. I don't think the argument that just because some pilots don't care about it means it has no value at all is accurate, however I see the point being made.

In any event, I got the answer I needed. Thanks for the info. Safe travels, blue skies, and good luck to those of you selling your aircraft, may you get your asking prices. I hope to see some of you at a future BCP fly-in one day in whatever plane I end up buying, with my ADS-B transponder squawking happily along.

Cheers

I don't think any of us meant offense, so I hope you didn't take same from my response.

Your question, as rephrased is an interesting one. For some reason, modifications, including avionics, never seem to actually increase the sale price of an airplane as much as the cost of the mod and install cost. I've never understood that, but...... .

You can take a basic plane of a given type, install a brand new, good quality comm radio, and generally, that addition won't net the cost of the radio and install when you sell the plane. Which suggests that, unless you really have your heart set on getting a plane JUST the way you want it, look for one that's already equipped.

I assume this will also be true of ADS-B, but with the mandate still several years out, I think a lot of folks are holding off on ADS-B purchases. Note the current effort by the FAA to offer rebates......trying to get folks on board.

Problem is, I'm not sure any pilot with a pulse trusts the FAA to keep the requirements the same, and/or some company to come up with a super duper box that does that task and is cheap. The market is evolving, and I'm not sure I'd want to commit just yet.

MTV

I "committed" (or should be committed ) with the installation of a KT74 B-K transponder, tied to my 430W, in January. Quite honestly, the hype that the FAA has promulgated is a little over the top compared to what it provides right now. Until everyone is equipped, and until the FAA's system is fully operational, it's like icing on the cake without the cake. I have seen airplanes that the ADS-B In (via a Stratus 2S and Foreflight on my iPad Mini) didn't show me, and similarly I have had ATC call out airplanes to me that didn't show, either. I have also seen a lot of airplanes on my iPad that I've not been able to see visually, as well as having the ES part of the transponder tell my 430W of traffic.

So I can't say it's a total waste to have ADS-B Out and In right now, but it's not a perfect system by any means.

Incidentally, the ES part of the transponder also makes an aural warning through the headset, and to get that from the ADS-B In set-up I described above, I use the Bluetooth connection from my iPad Mini to my new DC One-X headset. Getting those aural warnings is a nice piece.

Cary