I have had a preference for manual flaps. I think it is better to be able to see what's going on, and I am better at mechanical stuff than electrics. I also live in a maritime climate, and have thought that less electronics means less stuff that is prone to corrode. But lets put the reliability and maintenance aside for a moment. Something I have heard, and also said to myself, is that electric flaps are too slow, and that it is good to be able to set or retract flaps in more or less an instant.

But if that is an actual factor, you are probably having very small margins! I mean, when Patrick Romano does what he does in the 182, why on earth should a weekend warrior care? It probably depends on style of flying, and the mission. If you are into max STOL performance, then maybe. If you are "just" into flying safe in the backcountry, but need to be able to land in short field, I suppose that you should plan and set up landings so that you should never depend on setting or dumping flaps in an instant. What is a situation that a careful pilot could end up in, where you would need the advantage in speed that a manual flap gives?

I fly a 182P with electric flaps and a 170B with manual flaps, I prefer manual flaps, but electric flaps work just fine IMHO.
I made a video about flaps.

Thanks for making these videos and sharing them! I figure it is a matter of preference, but that a lot of the talk can make it seem like it is a bigger deal than what it really is - for most of us at least.

I honestly liked the ability to reach over and easily take all the flap out just as/before the mains touched. With electric flaps it was easy as can be. It took longer to get the muscle memory down to do it in my 170 without swerving into a ditch.

I'm not doing any flying where the electric flaps would be too slow. But maybe that's just me.

That said I had the electric flaps fail to retract in flight on rental aircraft.... Have yet to have that issue with the manual ones.

Without typing out the entire story, someone I know was in a situation where manual flaps saved their butt. Very high density altitude, heavily loaded, and a mag issue that caused partial power on takeoff. With no more runway, popping to 30 degrees flap without a conscious thought, gave them enough lift to keep from descending and begin to gain airspeed. The mag issues was found after the flight.

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contactflying wrote:test

Yep, it works!

I like the feel I can get with them and also the level of control especially if you’re using them low level almost like a collective

Also handle in a good crosswind to be able to zero the flaps out quickly

Both work fine, but for a smaller plane I prefer manual when I can get it

Good point about smaller planes

Varanger wrote:Good point about smaller planes

They all have wings....


All things equal, for the mission of the average light bush beater, I prefer a Johnson bar.

Having said that, there is probably no one on the aviation planet that uses flaps more (in all regimes) than the average Air Tractor driver. Electric flaps....

I am not one, but have, and do fly them on occasion. It's not coincidence that I call them 'FlapTractors'

I am here to tell you, the difference is nil. Really... It is the exact same difference you experienced graduating from a C152 to a C180... a C172 to a C210, or a C182 to a Barron ad infinitum... you just learn to think further ahead of the wing, and anticipate faster. At some point you begin correcting in anticipation (IOW, for something coming but hasn't even happened yet)

A C130, yes you read that right, a C130 can be stopped in distances a student struggles getting a C172 stopped in.

ington6 wrote:...With no more runway, popping to 30 degrees flap without a conscious thought, gave them enough lift to keep from descending and begin to gain airspeed. The mag issues was found after the flight.

Having not been there, I will not call BS, but this individual should have bought a lottery ticket. Because what you are describing is physically impossible. Either they had more power producing than they were aware of (not in tune with energy management) or they bent science. The single time you can have too much flap is when you haven't enough energy to overcome the drag.
Many an ag pilot has bit off more load than they should have

The next issue is that they lumber off the ground with the help of flaps. A mile off the strip, they can't build speed with the flaps down, and can't maintain altitude (usually inside ground effect) without them.... if you are building speed with flaps down, you have power to spare, period.

Again, wasn't there so not calling anyone out, just saying it simply doesn't compute as presented. FWIW, I believe the story and intent, I just dont think the individual understood what happened, this is an example of why I say never say never or always in aviation.

Take care, Rob

And Jim, thx for sending the Kingsleys not going to be a fit today, but who knows what the future holds?

You.

Are

welcome

Rob.

Thanks Rob, I have also discussed this per email with Jim.

I have said it before, but I am constantly pleasantly surprised of how much I can learn when I dare to ask «stupid» questions. Things that most seem to have figured out. Low experience combined with access to way to much information has probably made me form opinions that on things I do not have the right insight in. Flaps is one of those things.

If I am so close to the edge of the envelope, that an electric flap is too slow, I should probably not have been flying like that at all. But NineThreeKilo seem to have a point. Small airplanes can have a surface area not far off bigger airplanes, but with the much lower mass it means there is less inertia. It seems to me that there could be an advatage to be able to handle a gust with setting or dumping flaps quickly.

BUT. I have felt reasonably comfortable handling it with attitude/nose setting. The Savage has a flap lever near the floor on the left side. Taking my hand of the throttle and bending down has not been something I have even considering on final in gusty conditions.

A flap can be a control surface or a «trim» surface (Does that make sense?). I have a poor grasp on how far off I am of the kind of flying, skills and conditions for the former to be the case. Today, I like setting up the plane as early as possible, and just use throttle, stick and rudder. Treating flap more like a trim.

My take away so far is that both works and there are other things about a plane that is much more important…

Your questions may start academic , but they are thought provoking and actually super good questions.

93K's point is valid, but again, it's all about the mission.

Many STOL comp birds have been built with flap dump switches and triggers.

In that use, they work, and are fun. But my experience has been that if you can do the slow dance well enough with a light craft, the difference becomes marginal in real world flying. After all, a wing has requirements that it will perform at, how close you can reliably get to those requirements is what makes the difference. At some point removing any lift makes a wing quit, so the gross change of a full dump is a moot point. Likewise, a really well articulated 'flap jump' on departure almost never requires full flaps, it just requires back pressure on the Johnson bar, and stick, to break free, and then easing off as the speed increases. Here timing is far more critical than gross travel, in fact if you achieved full flaps, you probably gave some performance up because it took extra speed to overcome that drag.

Trim, yes.

Turning an ag aircraft is not backcountry anything, so I'm treading cautiously here, but I instruct flap use on every turn.
I also instruct that first and foremost the airplane must be slowed enough such that on application the flaps merely cancel out the loss of lift. If you feel the flaps sucking you to the seat as you pull around the turn, you are turning fast, and will yield a bigger turn radius (we don't make money in the turns). And you will do it at the expense of flap motors, transmissions, amd couplers. A correct flapped turn will have the flaps simply feel like you have AI handling your trim through the turn. Like this you can turn with finger tips, and your turn will eat up as little time and real estate as physically possible. In our world the biggest reason for this is because in a 13 minute load, my weight will change by +/- 5000lbs. But the turn tactic remains constant.

The common denominator between this and backcountry flying is when you find yourself in that unfortunate place of needing to get it bent around, you need to be able to do it without calculations and whizz wheels.

Take care, Rob

The big advantage of electric flaps is not having to have them partially deployed on the start of a take off run. Pacer/Cessna 180/185 are really bad for Hobbit types, even in a PA 18 you need 1/2 flaps or you are going to have to lower your head on the reach for the handEvery plane is different and it is the pilots job to set the plane up for the best results. Electric flaps are by no means too slow for STOL work for a pilot that is thinking ahead, large majority of Alaska hunters are brought in and out of camps with short 800- 1,000 ft strips in fully loaded electric flapped Cessna 206's. Dumping flaps in the air to hit your spot properly takes a lot of training. Done properly it is a reflex action that you never think of the motion your body is doing (that takes a lot of landings to build the reflex). The other issue is unless you hold that flap button down all the way to the floor you may not drop full flaps. Now you got your head low not seeing where you are going trying to save a bad landing (overhead and electric flaps avoid this issue). STOL is a very vague term that is aircraft and pilot dependent. At this point in your flying if you even think you may have to dump flaps to save a landing, you should have also picked a side to crash off of and a spot to do a intentional ground loop. But that is thread drift an a story for another day.
DENNY

Rob and DENNY, thanks a lot for elaborating! This is really food for thought. You have also touched upon so many other subject that I would love to talk more about, but I need to sort my head a little first… Everything from takeoff techniques, flapped turn, to having the ground loop as a tool for certain occasions!

SmokeyTheBear wrote:I honestly liked the ability to reach over and easily take all the flap out just as/before the mains touched. With electric flaps it was easy as can be. It took longer to get the muscle memory down to do it in my 170 without swerving into a ditch.

I'm not doing any flying where the electric flaps would be too slow. But maybe that's just me.

That said I had the electric flaps fail to retract in flight on rental aircraft.... Have yet to have that issue with the manual ones.

I've never had electric flaps suddenly retract because a cable broke or pulley mount weld snapped either. I'd rather have my flaps stuck part way down than suddenly retract when I'm slow and heavy and need hem down. That said, I used to prefer manual flaps. Maybe still do. But in my 206 youd need a long ass bar to pull the amount of flap needed. Same on the Air Tractor. That little trigger switch is pretty awesome. So I've grown to enjoy my electric flaps. I wouldn't let the choice sway me in a purchasing decision, I feel like there are far bigger things to sway decisions then electric vs manual flaps...

Flying a beav will teach you flaps as trim. Can’t really cruise or climb effectively at cruise/zero flaps. Depending on load and CG, a little flap is used to get the highest cruise speed or climb rate. But if you can give the gods 200fpm down, going to zero flaps will accelerate you drastically.

And any good DeHavilland disciple knows that mechanical vs electric is a dumb question because the path to enlightenment is manual hydraulic flaps.