I kinda hijacked the "latest ipads" thread with this issue, so I decided to start a new thread.
I'm interested if anyone has had any luck getting an EFD (electronic flight display) unit signed off in their factory airplane? With a 337 / field approval, as a minor alteration, whatever.

RKTX wrote:...The issue with pitot static being hooked in is a valid point, however, I am not replacing any required pitot/static instruments with the G5, and since the airplane is VFR, there is no certification or check required for the pitot static system, except for the transponder, which is really totally separate from what the G5 will tie into.

I emailed my IA buddy the latest brochure for the Garmin G5.
He is balking at being able to sign it off as a minor now, due to the pitot/static connections.
I think he (or more accurately the FAA) is worried that a leak or whatever in the non-TSO'd instrument could lead to false readings at the airspeed indicator and altimeter due to incorrect pitot/static pressures?
He said that last fall's policy statement PS-ACE-23-08 would be applicable to an electronic attitude indicator with a slip/skid ball, but is not applicable to an EFIS with pitot/static connections. I'm inclined to agree that the policy statement approves attitude indicators with a "secondary function" (singular) but unfortunately the G5 and similar devices all have about 10 secondary functions (plural).

Speaking of the Garmin G5, the older Avmap Ultra EFIS looks very similar.
http://avionics.avmap.it/us/products/ultra-efis/
Does anyone have any experience with it?
Slightly less money than the Garmin, slightly cleaner display,
but IMHO Garmin's rep and track record give their G5 the edge.

Unfortunately, this one also has pitot/static connections which seem to be a bugaboo.

A number of years ago, our aircraft division applied for and got field approvals for installation of Dynon D-10 units in a couple of Super Cubs. The FA were issued by the Merrill Field FSDO (Anchorage) and signed off by an avionics type there. We wanted a simple "get out of trouble" instrument in these planes, which didn't require vacuum pumps, etc. The FSDO required that we placard the instruments with "Not to be Used for Primary Information", which we did.

Shortly after receiving the second or third of these, we received notice that these field approvals were being rescinded by the Alaska Region, and the MRL FSDO had been instructed that field approvals would NOT be issued for these devices in certificated aircraft.

A long "discussion" ensued, which grounded a couple airplanes for a few months. Ultimately, the Alaska Region was informed that these were "Public Aircraft" by definition, and thus didn't need a field approval. Stick it, in other words.

But, that was the end of installing those devices.

In any case, it seems to me that there is plenty of evidence that the FAA views these things as a no no in certificated aircraft. And, frankly, while I might admire the IA who is courageous enough to sign one off as a minor, I'd suspect he was looking to retire fairly soon.

I know of a similar case in the Fargo FSDO, where a Maintenance Inspector issued a couple field approvals for these same units in certificated aircraft. In that case, the MI was simply instructed not to sign off any more of those, but they didn't move to rescind the existing FA.

I think if it were me, I'd wait and see where the EAA STC process goes. I'm betting it'll expand fairly rapidly once the foot is firmly in the door.

MTV

A guy I know has a field-approval for a Dynon D6 installed in his C150TD. His mechanic is a friend of mine, he says there were two main hurdles. The first was tying into the pitot/static system. The second was coming up with a supplement to the AFM for the airplane, which believe it or not was the hardest one to satisfy them on.

The Dynon D6 & D10 are physically rather long for where I want to put it, which is part of why I'm more interested in the much shorter Garmin G5 or something similar. I don't really want or need airspeed/altimeter/vertical speed displays, which is why they tie into the pitot/static, but they all seem to have that. I just want an attitude indicator, a GPS-derived directional indicator, and maybe a skid ball.
I don't know why they have to include everything including the kitchen sink into these instruments-- I guess maybe just because they can?

I've been toying with the idea of the Dynon D2 (one of those "it clips into the panel, so it's not installed"), the Garmin G5, or, most recently, the GRT Mini-GA. They're all really slick, and it's easy to want the ones with the most features (Garmin and GRT).

The GRT doesn't have inherent air data, it'll just use GPS unless you add an ADC (Air Data Computer) that then must be tied into the Pitot Static system. External magnetometer also helps the GPS/IMU solution.

Anyone know what the process is to install a secondary P/S system? Does it say the P/S system *has* to go to a certified device? Per the AC referenced by GRT on their website, the FAA has some leniency in these so called PED's that as long as they are passive, they can receive data from certified devices. I'd almost argue that a secondary P/S system, only plumbed to a device such as these would be in that spirit. Placards everywhere to tell everyone within a thousand miles that it's not for primary reference to keep the FAA happy of course.

Or, you make a suction cup mounted solution for a secondary P/S system and argue it under the AC from last year that cleared the way for placing GoPro type devices on airplanes.

I'm still evaluating, but right now leaning towards the GRT unit or the G5. As slick as the Dynon is, I feel those other two really have nice UI's and better looking build quality. G5 and D2 have backup battery, GRT doesn't. For my simple application, GRT would not be "installed" and would simply power off the Cigaret plug (Dynon D2 style). I figure a home made battery backup in the cable from the plug to the unit can provide the redundancy I'd want there. Add the ADC and Magnetometer once the FAA finally clears the air on putting these things in our non-commercial, Part 91 ops airplanes (something I am expecting sooner than later).

Of course, my 1947 Cessna 120 didn't have TSO's or Part 23 when it was certified...so there's other arguments to be made there as well.

Finally, an IA buddy of mine sent me some slides from his renewal course in ANC this spring, there was guidance in there for how to coordinate install of non-certified EFIS's. I'll see if I can find that.

That GRT Mini-GA is a nice looking unit. Maybe more features than I'm looking for though.
From their webpage (http://www.grtavionics.com/mini-ga.html):

Optional digital magnetometer providing magnetic heading, wind speed and direction. Allows full accuracy attitude data even when GPS data is unavailable.
•Synthetic vision provides a natural way of detecting nearby terrain and obstacles and position relative to nearby runways.
•Highway-in-the-sky guidance to any runway in the database increases approach accuracy and helps safeguard against shallowing an approach, day or night.
•Flight Director – The flight director makes you the autopilot. It combines attitude control, altitude hold and navigation into one, simple-to-fly chevron command symbol. Increases accuracy and simplifies hand-flying IFR. A great safety enhancement for a VFR pilot that wanders into IFR.
•Heading and altitude bugs for reference and flight director control.
•G-Meter with peak recording.
•Flight Path Marker – shows your path relative to terrain, obstacles and runways.
•HSI display of GPS and navigation radio data, allowing it to be a backup navigation head for all Garmin navigation receivers.
•G430/530/650/750 interface capability via the optional ARINC-429 adapter.
•Moving map with terrain colored to show its proximity to your altitude, flight planning, nearest airports, weather frequencies, and even allows you to tune your compatible radio.

I take it you saw this right?

STCed Dynon 10A


http://www.dynonavionics.com/D10A-STC/



Certified as a primary instrument, I'd just wait a few months for them to add to their approved models list.

Fiddler wrote:Finally, an IA buddy of mine sent me some slides from his renewal course in ANC this spring, there was guidance in there for how to coordinate install of non-certified EFIS's. I'll see if I can find that.

Fiddler,

If you could post or PM me this info I would really appreciate it.

Thanks,
Joe

NineThreeKilo wrote:I take it you saw this right?
STCed Dynon 10A
Certified as a primary instrument, I'd just wait a few months for them to add to their approved models list.

A couple issues with it:
1) almost 7" deep. Limited room behind the panel where I want to mount an EFD.
2) over $2K purchase price. Plus whatever they might want for the STC.
3) more installation work than I want. I read the installation guide, there's connections to altitude encoder, etc, a remote magnetometer, pitot/static connections, yada yada.

Tell you the truth, I've started considering the Dynon D2 again.
Simple installation, with no magnetomteters, pitot/static connections, etc--
only a remote GPS antenna which may or may not be required.
Just plug it into the cig lighter (or connect to a suitable circuit breaker) and go.
A friend of mine installed one in his airplane and swears by it.

NineThreeKilo wrote:I take it you saw this right?

STCed Dynon 10A


http://www.dynonavionics.com/D10A-STC/



Certified as a primary instrument, I'd just wait a few months for them to add to their approved models list.

Only certified to replace the attitude indicator right? Wonder if they'll ever certify the airspeed and altitude tape as well? That would be great.

I'm kinda curious if the D10 is / will be approved for IFR use in a factory airplane,
or does the STC permit VFR use only, perhaps with a "VFR use only" placard?

hotrod180 wrote:I'm kinda curious if the D10 is / will be approved for IFR use in a factory airplane,
or does the STC permit VFR use only, perhaps with a "VFR use only" placard?

I read somewhere (AOPA I think) that if the airplane was certified for IFR prior to installation it does not change. I wondered the same thing and was glad to read that it was allowed for IFR.

Re the Dynon D2: a blurb I read on the Dynon site aid that it displays your track based on true north, not magnetic. My buddy with one installed says his displays in magnetic. Anyone here with one?

I've mentioned in these threads my new installation of a Sandia Quattro:
https://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/ ... 23#p267523
https://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/ ... 73#p263173

As is obvious from the Dynon and Sandia websites, the Quattro and the D10 provide very similar information in very similar ways. Both tap into the pitot/static system to obtain airspeed and altitude information. The Quattro comes with a backup battery; the D10 has it as an option. How that factors into the cost, I don't know, but its a valid consideration--an airplane's electrical system can belly up just like its vacuum system can. As I said in one of the previous threads, the Quattro and the RC Allen 2600 electronic AI, when a backup battery is added to the RC Allen, are neck and neck on price.

The D10 can also provide direction and AOA at additional cost. I have no idea what those options cost. I'm a firm believer in AOA instruments, but I believe that they should be mounted in a separate instrument where they're in the peripheral vision as the pilot looks out the windshield, not buried down on the panel. A compass is still a requirement for all aircraft, so I'm not sure that there's a benefit to having a directional readout in the EFB display; my preference is a good compass, such as the SIRS that I have.

Both Sandia and Dynon claim that the Quattro and D10 are STC'd, but it's not clear to me whether that means that they can be used to replace all 3 of the primary instruments or only the AI. My own installation leaves the stock altimeter and airspeed indicator in place. For my purposes, even if I could pull the originals, I wouldn't. After all these years of looking at analog instruments, I can see at a glance when airspeed or altitude are trending off what I want quicker with a needle in a round instrument than by noting a tape or digital readout. But it is nice for one to back up the other.

I have no qualms at all about Dynon's stuff--it's proven itself in use for years. But I don't think this new STC is a total panacea for the cost of maintaining or improving certificated airplanes. The installation costs will still be there, since they can't be installed by the owner but must be installed by a certificated avionics shop. Tapping into the pitot/static system means that it must be recertified (timing the installation to the biennial certification makes good sense).

Here's my Quattro in the panel. This picture was taken to assist the installer to straighten it out, which is done electronically. The airplane was in straight and level flight. I then flew it down to Jeffco to have the installer adjust it. If I were to take the same picture today under the same circumstances, the Quattro would also show straight and level flight.



Cary

Terry recently posted on the 170 group that he got approval for a Garmin G3X:

"Logpile shared a photo in the Cessna 170's Photos album

Well after several months and a lot of help from an IA A&P type guy, I received a large envelope from Juneau FSDO that contains a signed and approved form 337 to install a Garmin G3X in my C170B.
To say I'm happy would be one of the biggest understatements of the year .

It will be a few months before I take on that project, but I will post before, during and after pic's."

I emailed my IA buddy the latest brochure for the Garmin G5.
He is balking at being able to sign it off as a minor now, due to the pitot/static connections.

I don't have anything to contribute to the legality of installation, but the G5 does not require pitot/static. In the setup menu you can disable the air data sensors and the display will show GPS derived groundspeed/track/altitude instead of pitot/static info.

fredy wrote: I don't have anything to contribute to the legality of installation, but the G5 does not require pitot/static. In the setup menu you can disable the air data sensors and the display will show GPS derived groundspeed/track/altitude instead of pitot/static info.

I wish Garmin would put this sort of information out there for potential buyers like me.
I surfed for but couldn't find any sort of brochure or spec sheet for the G5.
I asked the sales rep at Pacific Coast Aviation about disabling features and / or not connecting the pitot/static but he dint think that was possible.

Update- I did find and download the 152-page Garmin G5 user's manual, which includes installation & operating instructions. http://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-02072-00_B.pdf
I did find (on pages 17 & 37) instructions re use without pitot/static connections.

Reading through that user's manual, it seems to me that the G5 was designed to couple to autopilots and also connect to other Garmin nav equipment as a supplement, and that use as a stand-alone EFD is sort of an afterthought.

Maybe I'm wrong, but IMHO the more features and options a device has, the more likely it is that something will malfunction. I guess I'm looking for something more like the Dynon D2, but which can be mounted & connected in a cleaner fashion. The D2 clip-in dock isn't the tidiest looking arrangement, nor are the power & antenna wires which plug into the side of the unit instead of the back.