What Mike said. Half flaps on most planes is a good evaluation setting, lets you get slow enough to put as much weight on the turf as you want to test, but still enough lift to get you off quickly if it doesn't feel right. On a lot of planes the last notch of flaps is at least 50/50 lift/drag, and on some planes (like mine) more drag then lift so that setting should be saved for landing once you are slowed up and are ready to quit flying and get the plane on the ground.

A good friend says "there is no landing so bad that it can't be salvaged". Of course what he is really saying is that "there is no landing so good that you can't do a go-around". Approach every landing everywhere with that mindset, with the exception of one-ways of course. We humans are creatures of habit, and under any sort of distraction or pressure we will resort to habit. Treat every landing at every airport everywhere as a short field landing and you will be served well when the pressure is on.

"Treat every landing at every airport as a short field landing." Barnstormer .

What Barnstormer said worked well for me over the years. In thirteen forced landings I never hit anything on the far end of the landing zone.

Coaches who expect their kids to rise to the occasion, rather than practice hard, are generally disappointed.

mtv wrote:

kygreen229 wrote:Great old thread and good info. Have a question on "dragging" a landing area. Whether this be a known backcountry strip early spring for instance or a wide open hill top area testing the surface. General consensus to use full flaps and get nice and slowed down to have a look right off the surface? Or when deciding to touch the mains and feel the surface use full flaps again?

Ill give an example: I was going to land at a nice wide long "backcountry" strip here in Idaho this winter, not much snow in the area at all but was flying up to see what the conditions of it looked like. Expected it to be wet at least, if not muddy at the west end. Going east it is in to rising terrain but again this is a 5000' long strip. I flew over the top, looked at the strip and it looked fine from pattern or so height. Decided to set up like a normal approach finishing it out with 40* of flaps in my 170. As I got down to surface and gently touch mains on surface it seemed ok but was flinging some mud on wings etc. I decided I was going to go around and think it over.....well I was starting to run out of runway and basically decided it was safer at that point to just set it down and it all worked out. Made me think maybe I should have been say 30* or maybe even 20* of flaps and been faster so I could have more easily popped off surface and started the climb out. The O-300 doesnt have that much umph.

So other than all the good advice previously mentioned, whats the consensus on flaps and checking out or dragging and area you plan to land?

The answer to your question it depends on the airplane. But, with most Cessnas, and certainly with a 170, I evaluate with 20 degrees of flap. That gives you the easiest acceleration if you need to get going. An example might have been like the situation you described, but where the mud started to suck you in. In that case, you need to get moving NOW, and that little extra time to reset the flaps won’t help.

Twenty flaps just gives you more flexibility, and the stall speed reduction between 20 and 40 isn’t that much....you’re evaluating, not landing. One other reason for me is at 20 flaps, I’m not yet ready to land, so the temptation to just go ahead and land out of an eval. pass is gone. Finish the eval., go out, configure to land, THEN land.

Be careful on uphills, too. It’s pretty amazing how fast a plane decelerates on an uphill landing surface.

But, evals I do with 20 flap. Just too much drag.

Does your 170 have the stock engine?

MTV

Thanks for your reply. Really enjoyed reading your detailed description earlier in this thread. Totally understand that it depends on the airplane. My 55 B model has 10,20,30,40 degrees and its great but I quickly learned that day that using 40 and then deciding to climb out was a mistake with just that couple second delay in full power and trying to start that climb and reduce flaps. Again, why I ended up deciding to just land. I did not want to get into that situation again, especially on a strip where it really would have mattered in this case. Using 20 in my airplane sounds like it just makes sense for taking a looksy around, then coming back setting up to land using full flaps and touching down right around MCA.

I have 2 notches of flaps in the S-7S (3 actually, but one is "normal") and I do all manuvering while eyeballing a site on the second notch. I use the last notch only when I am ready to commit to a landing, and I can count the times on one hand I have gone to that third notch and then, for whatever reason, changed my mind and gone around. I guess I use the action of going to the third notch in my case, of mentally really getting prepared and committing to the landing. I find this helpful, when that third notch is used, I know it's showtime! I am 110% focused at that point, and not thinking about the past due oil change in the pick up truck, or the next days crane job, nothing but about what's going to happen in the next few seconds, damn it's fun!

After the landing, the fun really starts, walking the area you landed, and seeing what you missed, what was worse or better then you thought from the air, that's where the real learning takes place. I struggle with judging brush height, but in the proper direction: it's usually/almost always shorter and less of a concern then I feared.

My whole procedure is going to change soon, as I am in the middle of a flap handle mod (moved it's location and also giving it more travel, 2 additional notches) that will give me an additional 20 degrees or so of flap. I also recently moved my throttle, to a panel mounted vernier (but still left handed), and.... I have NOT FLOWN since January 16 th due to crap weather mostly, plus work, so my first flight after that long enforced layout combined with the other changes is going to be..... interesting.

courierguy wrote:I have 2 notches of flaps in the S-7S (3 actually, but one is "normal") and I do all manuvering while eyeballing a site on the second notch. I use the last notch only when I am ready to commit to a landing, and I can count the times on one hand I have gone to that third notch and then, for whatever reason, changed my mind and gone around. I guess I use the action of going to the third notch in my case, of mentally really getting prepared and committing to the landing. I find this helpful, when that third notch is used, I know it's showtime! I am 110% focused at that point, and not thinking about the past due oil change in the pick up truck, or the next days crane job, nothing but about what's going to happen in the next few seconds, damn it's fun!

After the landing, the fun really starts, walking the area you landed, and seeing what you missed, what was worse or better then you thought from the air, that's where the real learning takes place. I struggle with judging brush height, but in the proper direction: it's usually/almost always shorter and less of a concern then I feared.

My whole procedure is going to change soon, as I am in the middle of a flap handle mod (moved it's location and also giving it more travel, 2 additional notches) that will give me an additional 20 degrees or so of flap. I also recently moved my throttle, to a panel mounted vernier (but still left handed), and.... I have NOT FLOWN since January 16 th due to crap weather mostly, plus work, so my first flight after that long enforced layout combined with the other changes is going to be..... interesting.

Thanks for the input and best of luck with the new changes to the plane!

Barnstormer wrote:.....A good friend says "there is no landing so bad that it can't be salvaged".....

I've seen some people operate as if they subscribe to this motto....and they mean it.
A horrible pattern, a horrible approach, and a horrible flair (or whatever they might have called it)--
yet no decision to go around: " ready or not, we're gonna land this thing!".
Sometimes it's just ugly, sometimes the airplane just runs off the end of the runway, sometimes the airplane gets bent.

Sometimes I'm tempted to ask people if their flight training covered go-arounds.

I once flew with a friend in his Super Cub on skis, me in the back seat. This was before I became a flight instructor.

We flew over a very large frozen lake, and from a few hundred feet I decided i wouldn't land out in the middle....waaaaay too rough.

The pilot swings around and lines up to land....right there........ . I assume he's just looking the snow over a bit closer. He wasn't....he was landing there.... I seriously thought the gear was coming off, but it didn't. He shut down the engine, and we got out to look over the plane.

I very gently asked him why he'd landed there. His response: "Once I got that low, I was committed to land". I explained that, unless you're in a true confined one way strip, you're NEVER "committed to land".

Then he asked me why I hadn't said anything, and I responded that I'm very careful about potentially offending anyone else's sensibilities about their flying. Turns out that since he knew I had a lot more experience, he was hoping I'd offer advice.....but of course, he never mentioned that up front.

Anyway, no harm was done, we fired up and taxiied over to an area near shore which was smoother, and took off.

A learning experience for both of us.

MTV

mtv wrote:Then he asked me why I hadn't said anything, and I responded that I'm very careful about potentially offending anyone else's sensibilities about their flying. Turns out that since he knew I had a lot more experience, he was hoping I'd offer advice.....but of course, he never mentioned that up front.

MTV

And THAT is exactly why part of my pre-flight briefing before flying with any other pilot includes words to the effect of "If you see me about to do something you think is stupid – or even have a question about what I'm doing, or why I'm doing it – PLEASE speak up. I've got a thick skin, accept criticism pretty well, and realize I'm not perfect... I want BOTH of us to understand and be comfortable with what we're doing. If you're not, speak up!"

I said this when I was the instructor pilot for my Army unit, and I still say it today. Doesn't mean we didn't push into the "discomfort" region for some of the newer pilots learning to do new stuff, but it does mean that we talked about it, and they understood what we were doing and why – before we did it.

I'd rather hear "Uh, Jim, you do realize you're landing downwind?" question while still in the air, rather than after we run off the end of the runway...

Yes, and this is even more essential for flight instructors. I stress that I’m just a passenger if it’s not an instructional flight, but obviously, if something dangerous is about to happen, it’s time to mention “something” to the PIC to try to avoid problems.

But, frankly one of the most dangerous situations in flying can be two pilots in one GA cockpit. Doesn’t have to be, but.....

My mentors, early in my career, when they wanted to demonstrate something I wasn’t comfortable with, would say “okay, this is on me, here’s what I want you to do”. In that context, it was clear the check airman would take the heat if it didn’t go well. And I trusted those guys.

And, THAT was a great way to expand your envelope.

MTV

Lots of good discussion.

Couple things to add...

1. If it is an uphill landing...can you do a downhill inspection pass? Whenever possible, I try to make the actual inspection pass downhill, especially when rolling the tires, if the strip is uphill enough to warrant it. How uphill is that? Well, if I wouldn't try to take off uphill on that strip, then I don't want to be doing a go-around uphill. If I would consider an uphill takeoff an option, then an uphill evaluation run is reasonable. But an evaluation drag results in a takeoff, so whatever manner you do it in should be consistent with the decision process for how you would take off from that strip.

2. Every landing is just an aborted go-around. Which is another way to say that no matter how many times you have dragged it, you are not committed to stop unless you choose to do so...

3. People do not practice go-arounds enough. Backcountry site evaluations require the equivalent of lots of go-arounds. You should be super comfortable with exactly what the plane does and how it performs in the process of executing the go-around.

Carry on.

When operating within terrain and obstacles, we need to know which way is down drainage. We need to know how to turn within lateral limits. We need to know which is more energy efficient; down drainage, energy management turn or rudder turn around terrain and obstacles, or attempting to out climb terrain and obstacles.

While the climbing go around may be default for flat, obstacle free, terrain, it could be very dangerous when inside terrain and obstacles unless planned for and determined to be safe.

A safe go around would normally be initiated while zoom reserve both in altitude and in airspeed remain. If the evaluation is nape of the earth, no zoom reserve in the form of altitude exists. If the evaluation is to be slow, no zoom reserve in the form of airspeed exists. We may need ground effect and/or gravity (down drainage) energy to safely go around.

I know several folks have pointed out distance measuring apps, but I thought I'd chime in that the Google Maps app that just about everyone has on their phones also has a distance measuring feature. You just press and hold to drop a pin. When you then click on your dropped pin, the pop up menu will give you an option to measure distance. It's only approximate for runway/landing area length since it's in miles to the nearest tenth. However, I also find it useful for daydreaming about cross countries because I can quickly find the straight line distance between two airports. You can even segment the line similar to Google Earth, but all right from your phone.

For measuring distance when you arrive at a landing site, the fact that 60 knots = 30 metres per second is too convenient to ignore.

I fly over my landing site at 60kts and count the seconds, 3 seconds = 90m, 4 seconds = 120m, too easy.

I'm impressed by the various methods for measuring the distance. It makes me feel like a slacker for just eye balling it. I have never thought in terms of how many feet are available, just what it looks like. The only time I have bothered to measure something was putting up a marker on my runway at the 100' mark from the end, where I taxi turn up to the hangar. The game was to land shorter, 65 to 80' rollout was doable pretty often (the 65', once) with light braking and a little attention, not really trying, 150', a good upslope accounts for those numbers. One day, on my old 5 acre property where the strip was even steeper, Mile High-ish, after several years of using it in my first S-7, I measured it, 400' +- 15'. It's total length was determined by the property line to my neighbors field. Then when I moved a couple miles away and bought 40 acres, I decided where the new strip would go and simply ran the brush hog behind the tractor down it, and started using it. A couple years later I got around to measuring it, 405' coincidentally, I guess I have figured that length is plenty for high gross down hill takeoffs on hot days, and moderate tail wind landings. I guess what I'm saying is the slope involved makes such a difference, and almost all the places I land are sloped to steep, I don't feel knowing the length in feet would help me much, but good to know the various methods anyway.

Battson wrote:For measuring distance when you arrive at a landing site, the fact that 60 knots = 30 metres per second is too convenient to ignore.

I fly over my landing site at 60kts and count the seconds, 3 seconds = 90m, 4 seconds = 120m, too easy.

Frig. Now I'm flying along trying to convert kts to mph and meters to feet... haha.
I learned that 60kts is 100 ft/ second as well, and it is quite accurate.

Liaro wrote:I know several folks have pointed out distance measuring apps, but I thought I'd chime in that the Google Maps app that just about everyone has on their phones also has a distance measuring feature. You just press and hold to drop a pin. When you then click on your dropped pin, the pop up menu will give you an option to measure distance. It's only approximate for runway/landing area length since it's in miles to the nearest tenth. However, I also find it useful for daydreaming about cross countries because I can quickly find the straight line distance between two airports. You can even segment the line similar to Google Earth, but all right from your phone.

Actually, you can select the units in the app, to read feet, meters, etc.

But the bottom line is you STILL need to conduct a good site evaluation when you get there. Some of those images are fairly old, so things may have changed.

Google Earth is a good tool to use at home for planning purposes, though.

MTV

Battson wrote: For measuring distance when you arrive at a landing site, the fact that 60 knots = 30 metres per second is too convenient to ignore. I fly over my landing site at 60kts and count the seconds, 3 seconds = 90m, 4 seconds = 120m, too easy.

THat doesn't work in the US, but 70 mph (aka 60 knots) = 100 feet sure does.
It's surprising how many pilots, even those who regularly land off-airport, don't seem to know this.
Getting a close idea of the available length of a potential landing site is my first step in evaluating it.

I carry a little digital timer velcro'd to the top of the LH forward door post,
I pretty much only use it for timing airstrip lengths, and for timing my pre-takeoff engine warm-up.

Excellent advice from all!! Something I have mentioned in other posts that was pointed out to me on my first day of landing off field. Know where you are going to crash. We all know where we want to land but as you are surveying the field figure out where the best/worst place to crash is. This is basically the same as escape routes but on the ground. I landed on a strip once that had several planes on the right side. About 20 ft off the ground the wind decided to spank me like a unwanted redheaded stepchild!! By the time my wheels touched down I was 45 degrees to the runway pointed directly at my buddys plane. Having thought this out before hand. I was prepared with full left brake only which swung me back onto the runway. This one had a steep escape to the left that could be serviced with power. Escape plans both in the air and on the ground are important. A bit of thread drift. Once on the ground get CLEAR of the runway whenever possible. This means no parking on the end and no parking with prop 15 feet from tire track. Push WAY back as far as possible and everybody park on the same side so you can leave a ground escape route.
DENNY

Good points about getting off the runway as quickly as possible. I come from the cropdusting world,and a lot of times we work with multiple aircraft on short narrow one way strips. Lolly Gagers can give you headaches and can cause safety issues for sure.