mike b wrote:Some engines have the capability of using an oil temperature thermostat called a veritherm. These are much more practical than taping over oil cooler fins/inlets. If you have the option it makes temp control easier and more effective whether hot or cold.

The Tanis/Rieff heating systems with a good insulated cover are so effective I don't see any reason to deal with light bulbs, blowers, etc. If electrical power exists there is almost no hassle. Plus these can be put on timers so you can sleep while it heats up. My engines are often warmer in the winter due to preheating than on a summer morning without heat.

Absolutely right on the Tanis/Reiff systems.......they are indeed the way to go IF you're in cold country and flying regularly from unheated storage.

That said, for someone who's operating in Tejas, where temps rarely get into the deep freeze, I'm not convinced I'd be interested in spending that much money on engine heaters. There are a lot of simple and CHEAP heat solutions that work fine in "not so cold" temps and not very often pre heats being the norm....

Even in northern AK, when going on the road, especially to fly a plane that was assigned to someone else, I carried a "Little Buddy" heater, and always a Wham O catalytic heater, in case the plane I was to fly had an inoperable heat system, or a wimpy one.

Tanis makes two "heat ranges" in their systems, and the lower heat range system doesn't make the grade when parked outside at - 40 overnight. No reflection on Tanis....they're quite clear on what temp range to use where.

But, "occasional cold" things like light bulbs or a Little Buddy work fine.

MTV

I built three different cabin heaters for my Kitfox and they were all dog breath heaters...about as warm as a dog breathing on you. I then bought a heated vest. It was advertised that keeping your body core warm will keep the rest of your parts warm. It works. I was worried my feet would still get cold but they don't. The vest is a Gerbings. http://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/gerb ... vest-liner I see they are closing them out and the replacement is a lot more expensive.

The heat controller for mine was an extra $70 when I bought so it didn't get it. Just wired an on/off switch in the harness. It is on high all the time so in about 5 minutes I'm hot and turn it off again.

My little Rotax engine has an internal alternator that supplies plenty of power. Specs for the vest are 12V DC and 4.5 amps. My only other electrical accessory is the starter so I could run another vest for a passenger if needed.

No preheat required for my two stroke engine. Just start it and warm up to 200 degrees cylinder head temp...about 5 minutes...and take off.

That sounds like a good solution, dog's breath heater, I like that! I went through all that motorcycle type heated clothing thing when flying ultralights in the winter 30+ years ago, and nowadays consider it a last resort, and am glad I don't need to do so anymore. Having an enclosed cockpit is advantageous in the winter I've found. It all works (heated socks was the best part) but is expensive, a bit cumbersome and another hassle to deal with. Heated seats and such take current, current takes fuel to make, no free lunch there though it would seem so. Hypermiling car geeks eschew using electrical loads as much as possible as they can see the fuel burn difference in their heavily instrumented rigs. Minor for sure but there none the less. I like getting in the airplane in more or less street cloths, what a luxury! I had planned to go back to electric socks etc when I started ski fly, but found it not needed with the two heaters I have.

Some of us Rotax pilots have two heaters, I do anyway. The original muffler heat muff plus I have a cockpit controlled divertor valve that runs the coolant through a heater core under the panel with a muffin fan behind it. The fan is auto controlled by a 120 degree snap switch The huge advantage of this is also being able to get the engine warmer quicker and keep it there when super cold outside. I also have a cockpit controlled oil cooler shutter, a sliding piece of lexan in a track in front of the cooler. Only after installing both of these mods was I able to deal with the extremes of winter temp swings and still not over heat or run too cool. The efficient and smaller Rotax has a lot less waste heat to throw away then a 0-320 for instance so good heating in a plane powered by one is a bit more of a challange maybe.

Tape over the cooler and radiator works, until you start doing some slow flight and shooting multiple landings/tankeoffs on some mountain snow field, then things get too warm. Or, after playing around up high, a long descent into a valley at idle was another extreme. I found that I either had too much or not enough tape, and that it was a bitch to reach in flight

Good idea to put small hole up high on your oil breather tube. The low end of tube can freeze shut.

tcj wrote:No preheat required for my two stroke engine. Just start it and warm up to 200 degrees cylinder head temp...about 5 minutes...and take off.

I'd argue that at really cold temps, preheating is beneficial for any engine regardless of oil or not. Rate of expansion differences between position and cylinder can cause scuffing that likely shorten the lifespan of the motor.

courierguy wrote: I like getting in the airplane in more or less street cloths, what a luxury! I had planned to go back to electric socks etc when I started ski fly, but found it not needed with the two heaters I haveo

No offense, but that's a uniquely bad idea. The reason I started wearing a survival vest many years ago was seeing a friend in the wildlife business who always wore a vest when flying. I asked him why, and he told me the story....he was doing salmon surveys on Afognak Island with a contract pilot in a Super Cub. They crashed, and the pilot was killed. Glenn had a broken back and some other injuries. The survival kit was in the baggage compartment, right behind him. Every time he tried to get to it, he passed out from the pain. He spent three days and nights in that wreckage, hearing search planes overhead, and not able to signal them.

What's that got to do with clothing? He told me that the only thing he'd done right at the start of that flight was to dress very warmly, since that cub had a lousy heater and temperatures were pretty cool, though Kodiak rarely gets really cold--but it's always wet. He was convinced that he would have died of hypothermia had he worn street clothes on that flight.

I always wear clothing that would keep me warm and comfy if I wound up walking around after a hiccup. This is especially true when you're flying on skis....it's easy to get stuck, and VERY easy then to get those street clothes wet, and..... True in a car in winter as well.

Still not convinced? What if you have an accident that results in a fire? You jump out of that wreckage, but not going back to get warm clothing or survival gear. I have two friends who've been there....both were properly dressed prior to the accident.

While these may all seem like remote possibilities, they do happen.

FWIW

MTV

When Flight International bought out one of the versions of Yute Air I worked for, they brought their Lears and Casa 212's from Virginia up to ANC. I'd make a rare ANC appearance in a Sled during the winter months, or they'd make it out to OTZ on occasion to mingle with us "lowlifes" and the fight would be on between me and the "cool guys"

They'd make fun of me for looking like an Eskimo in fur and pac boots, while these dipshits would be in slacks and penny loafers with a windbreaker draped over the pilot's seat, even though it was -40 outside. They'd brag about bleed air and 72 degrees in the airplane, and make fun of the fact that if it was -40 outside, it was -39 inside the Sled.

They didn't care, or even want to care, about the fact that if they broke down, or even worse, broke the airplane and had to run from a fire, they be dead from exposure in a very short period of time dressed like that. My theory was that I was self-contained, always, and what I wore was what was going to keep me warm and alive. And it worked. Except for nipped fingers now and then when fueling, and I had to wear light gloves to work caps and the fuel nozzle, or a bit of frostbite on my face where my glasses touched my cheeks, I never got cold up north. Never.

You can fight the cold at 30 above with body heat. At 30 below ya can't do it.

Gump

Yup, and even at 30 above, you probably won't last two days.....

MTV

Zzz wrote:

tcj wrote:No preheat required for my two stroke engine. Just start it and warm up to 200 degrees cylinder head temp...about 5 minutes...and take off.

I'd argue that at really cold temps, preheating is beneficial for any engine regardless of oil or not. Rate of expansion differences between position and cylinder can cause scuffing that likely shorten the lifespan of the motor.

My Rotax 503 Aircraft Engine Operators manual lists minimum engine start up temperature as -25C, -13F. I don't know for sure but suspect that is due to the oil in the gear box being too thick.

mtv wrote:Yup, and even at 30 above, you probably won't last two days.....

MTV

Mike

I sent you a PM on the Husky site. I'm not sure they always get through.

Eric

Eric,

Sent you a pm.

MTV

Not to poke too much fun at a very serious topic, but these pictures almost always get me laughing.

When I was flying in AK, a few of the guys I flew with would complain that I hardly ever ran the cockpit heat in the winter. I told them they weren't dressing warm enough.

If it's not on your body, the odds of having a piece of equipment after an aircraft incident go down significantly. Warm clothes, fire starting, signaling and protection I flew on my person. Anything else went in the back of the bird.

mtv wrote:

courierguy wrote: I like getting in the airplane in more or less street cloths, what a luxury! I had planned to go back to electric socks etc when I started ski fly, but found it not needed with the two heaters I haveo

No offense, but that's a uniquely bad idea. The reason I started wearing a survival vest many years ago was seeing a friend in the wildlife business who always wore a vest when flying. I asked him why, and he told me the story....he was doing salmon surveys on Afognak Island with a contract pilot in a Super Cub. They crashed, and the pilot was killed. Glenn had a broken back and some other injuries. The survival kit was in the baggage compartment, right behind him. Every time he tried to get to it, he passed out from the pain. He spent three days and nights in that wreckage, hearing search planes overhead, and not able to signal them.

What's that got to do with clothing? He told me that the only thing he'd done right at the start of that flight was to dress very warmly, since that cub had a lousy heater and temperatures were pretty cool, though Kodiak rarely gets really cold--but it's always wet. He was convinced that he would have died of hypothermia had he worn street clothes on that flight.

I always wear clothing that would keep me warm and comfy if I wound up walking around after a hiccup. This is especially true when you're flying on skis....it's easy to get stuck, and VERY easy then to get those street clothes wet, and..... True in a car in winter as well.

Still not convinced? What if you have an accident that results in a fire? You jump out of that wreckage, but not going back to get warm clothing or survival gear. I have two friends who've been there....both were properly dressed prior to the accident.

While these may all seem like remote possibilities, they do happen.

FWIW

MTV

I should have emphasized street clothes "more or less". I didn't mean penny loafers, slacks and a golf shirt, like Gump's co-workers (now that's funny) But, insulated leather boots (Thinsulate type, so not huge) and heavy Carhart jacket with hood, that's what I call street wear in the winter here on the mountain outside of Inkom. This, as opposed to full highest quality snowmobile suit with long underwear under that, bunny boots,battery heated socks and gloves, full face mask etc. Even with my 2 heaters, it's still not even close to a car heater comfort, but not bad for a light plane. So, relatively speaking it's somewhat light wear compared to the way I used to suit up. Could I survive overnight in -30 dressed like that, hell no, I carry all that gear behind me, and if I can't get to it after a crash I'm SOL, same with catching on fire. I do carry my PLB and cell phone on me at all times but really don't count on them to work. As far as the seat heaters, I have, and have had in my last several airplanes, a very thick premium quality untrimmed sheep skin, that is warm in the winter and cool in the summer, don't ask me how the sheep does that but it and the Temperfoam under it, all on top the regular seat makes for a pretty sweet ride.



Cold, you want to talk cold?? Time to post this picture again:it was 6 degrees on the ground that morning, and I got up (easily, could have gone higher, the ceiling was about 16K on that bird) to 12,400' for this shot. Note the complete lack of anything to break the wind, hell even no heater but a floor, doors, and a windshield is pretty deluxe after that!

Yup, it's all relative, ain't our language grand?

MTV

Tape. That way you can tape all your leaks. I was flying the last two days here, yesterday was cold. Really cold. Today I hooked up the cabin heat in the j-3, it was a little better. It makes a huge difference to stop the drafts
The gravel bars were covered in snow.

Today was better, warmer.

Tom

Everything I learned about cold weather gear, I learned from flying wild alaska...

^^^^^^^ OK. The suit looks warm. Doesn't it make the passengers uncomfortable?

Littlecub wrote:^^^^^^^ OK. The suit looks warm. Doesn't it make the passengers uncomfortable?

He did actually wear that while flying (minus the mask of course). It was a very funny episode. He had this adorable chubby kid sitting right seat who kept looking at the pilot and laughing.

"What's so funny?"

"There's a chicken flying the plane!!!"

Ha Ha! Most of those kids have never seen a chicken!

Gump

Crap... I just got a email from my brother in Fairbanks, bragging about it being 30 degrees up there, 7 below here, that's just ass backwards.

The black pipe wrap tape is good for sealing up things for the winter, when you're ready to take it off it comes off clean, no residue like duct tape. My plane especially benefits from taping up the LE wing cuff windshield area. Taking off the headset in flight I found a wind whistle coming in there also, not now. The tape looks like shit but who cares, I certainly don't, I can't see it when flying.