mtv wrote:We replaced these bricks with Odyssey batteries, lost 8 pounds and gained almost total reliability.

How the the Odyssey's stand up to the sometimes extended cranking of a fuel injected engine in the summer?

I've been really pleased with my Concorde AGM battery, since installing it 3 years ago. It seems to lose almost no power, even sitting for a couple or three weeks, whereas my previous Gill would lose noticeable power in that same time frame--of course, it was 6 years old, too. Even on those occasions when for one reason or another, my engine doesn't start immediately, the cranking capability far exceeds what the Gill did when it was new.

My only experience with Odysseys is not in aviation. One year my Sis and I rented a houseboat at Lake Powell, and we had to call the marina for help when both Odysseys went dead, although one was isolated so that it shouldn't have discharged at all. The mechanic that came out and replaced both batteries with Interstates said that they had gone to Odysseys based on reported benefits, but that they'd had nothing but trouble with them. Apparently they weren't designed for deep cycle use like is necessary in a houseboat, only starting. So none of that might be relevant to airplanes, but just FWIW.

Cary

Did a 185 on wheel ski's one time!!
Felt real good when it finally started!!
I'll try never to do that in the future!!

Difference?
The little Cub is both a "one handed toss"-and usually ONE starting toss.

There is something to be said for the KISS approach to flying.
Well, ok, maybe not a lot- but something...

Littlecub wrote:^^^^ Hand propping a little Cub on skis in snow is like on floats. No big deal. From behind and feet apart and as stable as possible, and with a good grip on the door frame with the left hand, use the right hand to toss the prop.
Sounds a little precarious, but what IS precarious is on bare ice. Real good grip with the left hand. And feet as stable as possible (boards, boughs, grass, sand-or just good boots).
Be careful/pay attention-and don't let it become "routine"......

Um, add actual DEEP snow to the mix. Snow there was a bit over waist deep if you were dumb enough to step out without snowshoes. "Stand feet apart"?? On what? All you have to stand on is the ski itself. I learned a long time ago that every set of skis MUST have non skid on the top of the tunnel for this reason, and others. That set didn't.

And, this was a Husky, not a cub, and had the factory prop indexing at 12/6 and those long gear legs. That prop index got changed right after this event

That said, having slept out at cold temps, I had no intentions to do so that day at -30 in that lake.

MTV

Barnstormer wrote:

mtv wrote:We replaced these bricks with Odyssey batteries, lost 8 pounds and gained almost total reliability.

How the the Odyssey's stand up to the sometimes extended cranking of a fuel injected engine in the summer?

The LITTLE Odysseys have great initial cold cranking amps, but they will run out of oopff fairly quickly if you grind on them very long. I probably wouldn't use one of the small ones in a FI airplane.

Odysseys are great batteries. We put them in a lot of planes, and I don't think any had problems at all. They work great, and are very common in Alaskan cubs and similar size airplanes. They will hold a charge for up to a year in storage. I know of several folks with them installed in 180s.

The one in my 170 was somewhere around seven or eight years old when I replaced it, just to be on the safe side....it was still cranking hard. I replaced it with another and put the old one in my lawn tractor in MN. That is stored outside in winter in a shed. Never pulled that battery for storage and in spring it fired the tractor right up. Been doing that for five years now.

I know....a battery that only lasts 12 years.......

MTV

Your supposed to dress warm but what do you guys wear for your outer layer? I usually wear insulated carhartt overalls and a carhartt coat but if I get stuck out overnight and get wet then they will be good for nothing. I don't want to wear my MotorFist snowmobile gear because in a fire it will just melt.

whee wrote:Your supposed to dress warm but what do you guys wear for your outer layer? I usually wear insulated carhartt overalls and a carhartt coat but if I get stuck out overnight and get wet then they will be good for nothing. I don't want to wear my MotorFist snowmobile gear because in a fire it will just melt.

Ever look at the liner in a Carharrt coverall? Nylon. I can introduce you to a gentleman who crashed a Super Cub and the liner in his Carharrt coveralls torched in the fire. The liner burned but the exterior canvas didn't. Burned his face and head pretty badly. Said the neck of his coveralls acted like a funnel. Flash fires are a bitch.

Carharrt does make fire retardant coveralls, by the way. Most cold weather gear is not going to do you any favors in a fire. For many years, I wore military insulated Nomex coveralls in winter (got them free), and those are great cold weather her....if you can get them.

MTV

For cold cold I always layered up from sweats out to the black Carhartt bibs and Carhartt Arctic jacket. I'd top off with a beaver hat over my ballcap (damn that thing is warm, and unless it was below -40 it was too warm), and Cabella's Trans Alaska Pacs on my feet. Mittens, not gloves. I'd throw my survival vest over everything, and be pretty much self-contained from there.

Getting wet wasn't a big concern at -40. And fire... Hosed pretty much if you couldn't get away from it.

Gump

Spent a couple of years flying in the Arctic, Elsmere and Banks Islands on a SuperCub (mid 70s) for CGG (French geophysics outfit).
We used surplus military Arctic parkas and white mukluks with liners. The all cotton and wool underwear got humid very quickly so it was imperative to carry replacements. We never left without three pairs of sock and gloves (fit inside the fur covered mitt that reached up to the elbow).
As for hand propping, daily occurrence I carried a “snow hook” in the baggage compartment (used on a rope behind dog sleds to hold it parked while the dogs keep the tension on) attached to a length of rope on the tail wheel and anchored it in the snow or dug it into the ice with the axe. Why so much trouble...the pilot I replaced was fired due to his PA18 disappearing in the distance...to eventually roll up in a ball a couple of miles away.
Fast forward to today, survival kit summer and winter in the Maule, change of clothes, Nomex parka and Snow Goose extreme parka (company issue), aluminum snow shoes, 30-30 Model 94, portable Map 62 Garmin GPS. Yeah nice to have a Maule with the backseat removed today...

Beamerpilot wrote:As for hand propping, daily occurrence I carried a “snow hook” in the baggage compartment (used on a rope behind dog sleds to hold it parked while the dogs keep the tension on) attached to a length of rope on the tail wheel and anchored it in the snow or dug it into the ice with the axe. Why so much trouble...the pilot I replaced was fired due to his PA18 disappearing in the distance...to eventually roll up in a ball a couple of miles away.

Oh man, that sucks.

How does the snow hook work when you're ready to leave? All I can imagine is you pulling the hook out of the snow and then running like hell to get in the plane before it drifts away, but that can't be right!

Nomex long underwear (tops n bottoms) ($) are available as a foundation layer for fire protection from the skin out. Some folks don't like its feel on their skin, so put a thin natural fiber underneath like silk or Moreno wool.

I guess, MTV, that my lack of Alaska/far north experience yielded a glare that you couldn't miss. I confess, I have no experience ski flying over a couple of feet's depth.
Yep. Greenhorn.

There is something to greatly appreciate about an easy start mill.
If it is Armstrong start, and you are dressed for outdoors, the last thing you want to do is wet your clothes with sweat wrestling with a tough start-right before you climb into a cold cockpit to sit real still for a few hours.

Additional: if you are "green" at very cold temp flying, learn to know your engine well at those temps. The Cub I was flying on skis had an engine that was reluctant to come back to full power after much of an idle decent at all. It is never fun hoping it will come back to full power-when all it wants to do is stumble each time you ease open the tap.
I scared myself good once after a short decent to take a better look at a ground attraction. I should have kept more "cushion" under me, not knowing the plane/engine any better than I did. I learned that lesson!

I can offer up my limited experience only to help those with less experience than myself. I greatly appreciate those on here with a wealth of knowledge far deeper and broader than mine who are willing to share it with us.
I am more than willing to defer to that knowledge base.

That being said, sometimes English is inadequate as a language. "Snow" in the native far north tongues (I have been told) has somewhere around 100 or so individual words describing/detailing texture, size, depth, dryness, crust, what all/etc....
I am used to using an inadequate little English word, which paints an inadequate picture of what I am thinking/describing on the receiving end of the communication.

Littlecub,

We all have different experiences (and nightmares). Your post was accurate in certain conditions...my point was simply reflective of the fact that ski flying, in my experience, offers by far the greatest diversity of challenges of any type of flying.

MTV

I got a great deal on a insulated US Air Force nomex flight suit. Looks real spiffy, warms as hell, lot's of pockets too. The only thing I hate about it is you can't get the damn thing off unless you take your boots off, the leg zippers don't zip up high enough. My snowmachine suit (let's forget that fire thing for a second) zips up all the way so even with bunny boots easy to take off. This is all important of course not only for going into a cafe for breakfast but when working shoveling, not getting drenched in sweat. I rarely wear the nomex, too warm most of the time, but I take it along, wearing it inside my two sleeping bags and the Gor-Tex bivy sack is my plan for overnighting if ever needed. I never wear the SM suit flying and don't even take it along.

Flying about 90% of the time on slopes, 8 to 30% grades, it gets interesting enough even with an electric starter. One time in particular last winter I had a situation where I had to position the plane just right in order to miss some trees on takeoff, (I had landed in a little gully going uphill, and had popped up onto a small ridge) this was contrary to the fall line (actually straight down the fall line, that was the problem, the plane wanted to take off without it's pilot) and to make a long story short I gingerly, VERY gingerly, had to climb in with the thought of if it started moving how I could maintain control while finishing getting inside. I did get in, and the second I cranked the engine , before any meaningful thrust, it started moving down the 20% slope. Adding the need to hand prop in that situation is what had me laughing yesterday, just thinking about it:shock: Playing around on the slopes, with double fall lines, and figuring out the all important turnaround is some of the most mentally challenging flying I've done, it makes summertime off airports ops child play in comparison . In retrospect a snow hook of some sort and a length of rope (all left behind, I can come back and get it in the summer ) would have been option #2. Cutting branches for putting under the skis to preclude plane movement before wanted was option #3, but the nearest trees were a ways away.

..... ski flying, in my experience, offers by far the greatest diversity of challenges of any type of flying.

Roger that.
I was adding a bit more to my post as you were replying.

No harm/no foul/no problem.
Thanks for you contributions.....

Additional:
Courierguy: I'm a flatlander here in central WA. I don't have near the depth nor breadth of your experience either. I appreciate your "airplane explorer" philosophy and willingness to bring us along. Thanks.

M6RV6 wrote:

Littlecub wrote:^^^^ Hand propping a little Cub on skis in snow is like on floats. No big deal. From behind and feet apart and as stable as possible, and with a good grip on the door frame with the left hand, use the right hand to toss the prop.
Sounds a little precarious, but what IS precarious is on bare ice. Real good grip with the left hand. And feet as stable as possible (boards, boughs, grass, sand-or just good boots).
Be careful/pay attention-and don't let it become "routine"......

Did a 185 on wheel ski's one time!!
Felt real good when it finally started!!
I'll try never to do that in the future!!

Be careful with that. I had a friend that live up in the King Salmon area that hand propped his conventional gear PA-22 from in front while on ice and it nearly took his whole leg off.

^^^^^ the more displacement, the riskier the deed.
For the little air knockers, it seems to me to be a reasonable risk-from behind. The other 3 limbs are contributing stability when/if the blade tosses easily with one hand.....
.....AND you know what you are doing.

mw2,
The snow hook was to prevent the aircraft from skiing away on start up, once started and throttle retarded and the engine was warm, it was OK to walk out and un hook. the rope stayed on and the hook went back in the baggage compartment.

An don't think these ops were hard on pilots, my admiration went to the A&Ps maintaining these machines. They would be inside a cargo parachute draped over the aircraft (we operated Bell 205s as well -not me-) held inflated by a Herman Nelson heater. When they didn't freeze their fingers they turned blue from the fumes. Good men deserving respect!

Still qualifies as the "good old days" as many of you know.