I’ve been using Foreflight since 2010. And since being introduced to Garmin Pilot a few years ago I’ve been using it as well. Kind of annoying to pay for both products, but each has/had features I like that the other doesn’t. The two features I especially like about Garmin Pilot are the Smart Airspace and the data driven relief map. I hated Pilot’s flight planning. My favorite features in Foreflight are it’s flight planning, fuel prices in Canada, and hotel/restaurant/car rental information for airports and the ability for users to leave comments associated with airports and FBOs.

Most of you know I took Mark Lush of Foreflight flying in the SQ2, then sat down with him with a list of features backcountry pilots would like added to Foreflight. That was a year ago. During the year since it didn’t seem like Foreflight was implementing much on our list. I relayed the same wants to Garmin at the same time (minus the features they already had) and it didn’t seem like they were adding them either.

Then a few months ago Foreflight released it’s data-driven relief map and took it one step further allowing it to be overlayed on other maps, including sectionals. Thrilled Foreflight added this, I was a bit disappointed it didn’t include “smart airspace” and found the relief map couldn’t be zoomed in quite as sharply as Garmin Pilot’s, but in all honesty in the real world I don’t think the relief map difference matters, I do want the airspaces in Foreflight to be “smart” though. Additionally I’d like the ability to change Foreflight’s airspace boundary colors to match Garmin Pilot’s as I’ve gotten used to those. Of course there were a lot of other new features added in the big Foreflight release.

And much to my pleasant surprise as Foreflight’s feature set continued to build, Garmin Pilot awoke, and came out with their big feature release, and I am thrilled. They added Weight and Balance, Electronic Checklists, Advanced Aircraft Performance, Expanded Data Sharing, Freehand Flight Routes, Integration with AOPA Flight Planner and Skyvector. Ok so none of these items are really important to me other then perhaps Freehand, but what is hugely important and part of the latest major release is the ability to “rubber band” a route directly on the map without entering edit mode, very cool.

Ever since being introduced to Garmin Pilot I’d wished one company would buy the other so I’d have the best of both in one app. Of course I knew that wasn’t going to happen and am glad it hasn’t as we’d then get no innovation at all. Competition is good, it drives innovation.

Oh and one other thing Foreflight has done, which is outstanding, is to allow Garmin’s GDL 39 to interface in addition to Stratus. Super cool, just ordered a GDL 39 3D (I can use with both Garmin Pilot and Foreflight) and sold my Stratus 2. Like I said, competition is good.

Final note. As usual there are going to be many more smaller new features with both apps that one either discovers serendipitously or by actually reading the latest manual.

Here are a couple of screens shots of my intended route this coming Wednesday to go visit my Mom (Alzheimers) and Sister in Madera CA.

Garmin Pilot


Foreflight


As pretty as the full color screen is with Garmin Pilot, I prefer to use this color option.

Garmin Pilot

By selling your Stratus 2, are you giving up on the possibility of doing ADS-B OUT with the same brand transponder, or are you planning on doing that with a Garmin brand transponder? I ask this because it seemed to me that the Stratus brand transponder combination was a cheaper way to comply with the 2020 mandate than going with a Garmin transponder. Did that factor into your decision, or have you already gone with a mode S Garmin?
Charles

MontanaT-craft wrote:By selling your Stratus 2, are you giving up on the possibility of doing ADS-B OUT with the same brand transponder, or are you planning on doing that with a Garmin brand transponder? I ask this because it seemed to me that the Stratus brand transponder combination was a cheaper way to comply with the 2020 mandate than going with a Garmin transponder. Did that factor into your decision, or have you already gone with a mode S Garmin?
Charles

As of today I have no intention of installing ADS-B out. The only towered airports in the U.S. I ever go to are Class D (Lake Hood, Kenai, Bozeman, Santa Fe to name most), and I've only flown above 10,000 feet to get a favorable wind, I can live nicely below 10,000 feet (not talking about mountains higher then that where the 2,500 agl window will allow non-ADS-B). It's true I will no longer be able to go over Class C airports, but I will still be able to go under them.

I assume I'll still be able to get a transponder waiver crossing Alaska-Canada-Alaska. Crossing Lower 48-Canada-Lower 48 I taxi across so don't need a transponder anyway.

MontanaT-craft wrote:By selling your Stratus 2, are you giving up on the possibility of doing ADS-B OUT with the same brand transponder, or are you planning on doing that with a Garmin brand transponder? I ask this because it seemed to me that the Stratus brand transponder combination was a cheaper way to comply with the 2020 mandate than going with a Garmin transponder. Did that factor into your decision, or have you already gone with a mode S Garmin?
Charles

The type of ADS-B receiver you have (Stratus vs. GDL-39) has zero impact on your selection for ADS-B Out. The two are completely independent. He could still use an Appareo ESG transponder for Out and the GDL-39 for In.

Thank you for the write up. I carry (2) complete autonomous systems, Android (Garmin Pilot ) and iOS (Garmin Pilot, ForeFlight). US and Canada subscriptions. Changes life forever, beautiful software!

Some unexpected caveats:

* Android (Galaxy 7 10") CPU is too slow for "Synthetic Vision" data from GLD-39 Bluetooth. Garmin supports says the Synthetic Vision needs a dedicated I/O CPU similar to Apple's.

* The Garmin GLD-39 interface with ForeFlight does not show battery status of the GLD-39. Which is dangerous. I sent FF LLC, a note.

I use Garmin Bluewater Charts & Weather for floatplane operation in Oregon, California, Washington, BC and Alaska. The Garmin Bluewater software is completely worldwide.

8GCBC wrote:* The Garmin GLD-39 interface with ForeFlight does not show battery status of the GLD-39. Which is dangerous. I sent FF LLC, a note..

Good to know, thanks. I connect to ship's power so never am on just battery, for me that's an emergency backup if for some reason I needed to shut the master off while in flight.

For those who may not be familiar with "Smart Airspace" the screenshot below illustrates it. For example the airspaces that are "lit up" are either "hot" or within my altitude, in other words potentially affect my flight. Airspaces that are subdued, for instance the MOA's just west or east of KDVT don't affect me with my current flight profile. The floors of these MOA's are at 5,000 feet and higher and my iPads altitude is 1,025 feet. Smart Airspace is a seriously great feature in busy parts of the country especially.

Oh, I modified my route slightly, thought it would be fun to fuel stop at Big Bear. Can't wait to see all the ADS-B traffic in the LA area, ought to be insane. I'll screen shot it and share later.

Central California:

Screen capture Garmin Pilot near San Francisco Bay. I was flying to Catalina Island. ADSB really gives a detailed picture!



Going to Madera? Have some semi-fun, stop at Catalina...If you like off beat.. the runway is full of rocks and gravel. The restaurant is over priced and there's a $25 landing fee! I'll use the ocean from now on at Twin Harbors etc...But, Catalina Island and the rest of the Channel Islands are amazingly beautiful.

Anacapa Island:

Santa Cruz Island from the air:

Airport in the sky:

I was considering starting a different thread, but I don't think it would be a significant drift to ask the following:

If a guy could only choose one, which would it be? I realize there is no firm answer (Ford vs. Dodge vs. Chevy) but I'm curious to know what people with similar missions have chosen or would choose.

80% of my flying will be in uncontrolled airspace so airport and FBO info isn't my first priority but maps, weather and backup GPS are pretty important to me,

I will likely have a Garmin 796 in the panel sooner rather than later, but not a Garmin stack, so it isn't like I need to stay Garmin in the interest of homogeneity.

I'm platform agnostic, run a Mac at home but an Android phone.

Best COTS* tablet:

Apple Inc. and FF LLC... For aircraft navigation. GPS/ADSB/AHRS via Bluetooth added.

(Disclaimer: I keep a Samsung Android with GARMIN Pilot close by because I do not trust Apple Inc., however.)

* https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_off-the-shelf

8GCBC wrote:Best COTS* tablet:

Apple Inc. and FF LLC... For aircraft navigation. GPS/ADSB/AHRS via Bluetooth added.

(Disclaimer: I keep a Samsung Android with GARMIN Pilot close by because I do not trust Apple Inc., however.)

* https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_off-the-shelf

LOL — you don't trust Apple, but you trust Garmin? Don't know why, but I find that funny...

JP256 wrote:

8GCBC wrote:Best COTS* tablet:

Apple Inc. and FF LLC... For aircraft navigation. GPS/ADSB/AHRS via Bluetooth added.

(Disclaimer: I keep a Samsung Android with GARMIN Pilot close by because I do not trust Apple Inc., however.)

* https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_off-the-shelf

LOL — you don't trust Apple, but you trust Garmin? Don't know why, but I find that funny...

Where did I say I trust Garmin?

Laughing? Read what I wrote again.

8GCBC, you mention Bluewater charts. I've wondered about them. Can you lighten me a bit?

What do you display them on? Could I display them on my 796?

How do you use them and what's the benefit? Do you switch to them before landing to check water depth?

How useful are they for a fisherman, once you're on the water.

TIA

albravo wrote:...If a guy could only choose one, which would it be? I realize there is no firm answer (Ford vs. Dodge vs. Chevy) but I'm curious to know what people with similar missions have chosen or would choose.

80% of my flying will be in uncontrolled airspace so airport and FBO info isn't my first priority but maps, weather and backup GPS are pretty important to me...

If I could only choose one, currently it would be Garmin Pilot. A primary reason for that is the difference between the weather radar detail and the size of the wind barbs. Look at the two screen shots carefully and you will see the difference with the weather radar, especially on the lightest green. Having flown nearly 300 hours in the Alaska bush this past summer I can confirm that what I see in Pilot is accurate, for instance knowing the lightest green has no precipitation. Bearing that in mind the Wx radar I see in pilot gives a better understanding of a storm's intensity then I get with Foreflight. This is of course Internet weather driven, not ADS-B weather which is not as detailed.

Wind barbs may seem like a minor thing, but once I've determined the flight categories where I'm going, I switch to wind barbs unless the ceilings are low in which case I switch to ceilings. And when zoomed in on the map Pilot’s wind barbs are much easier for me to see.

The third reason is the aforementioned Smart Airspace. I appreciate my map being as decluttered as possible, which is also why I'm glad I no longer need look at sectionals with either ForeFlight or Garmin Pilot, and with Smart Airspace in Pilot only the airspaces that concern me are “lit” and the number, types, and when airports are displayed are somewhat under my control, again decluttering my map.

The things I’d miss most by not having Foreflight is trip planning (it is still superior), Canada fuel prices, comments, and local area information.

Fortunately I don’t have to choose just one.

Pinecone wrote:8GCBC, you mention Bluewater charts. I've wondered about them. Can you lighten me a bit?

What do you display them on? Could I display them on my 796?

How do you use them and what's the benefit? Do you switch to them before landing to check water depth?

How useful are they for a fisherman, once you're on the water.

TIA

GARMIN Bluewater Charts (general nautical charting, bathymetric information, GPS, real time Weather & Alerts) were originally started (and used commercially) 10 years before an average "Aircraft Pilot" even knew what GPS was. I knew commercial pilots flying from Los Angeles to Narita in 747s using inertia navigation (ugh) while we on the ocean were using electronic charts and GPS. Circa early 90's. Now of course aircraft navigation is caught up and surpassed surface electronic navigation simply because of the more stringent regulations that the FAA, ICAO and manufacturers require.

Garmin BlueWater fills in a huge gap for backcountry flying on floats and I would highly recommend it.

This is the river next to my airport. I practice here and generally do a few touch and goes in the floatplane to get current. As we see the ATONS and related information are pretty clear.


Realtime time currents on the river:

Realtime tidal predictions. Very important at high latitudes I.e. BC and Alaska!


This is a video of me flying on the river of the above "Screenshot". I feel a lot better having planned the takeoff with Bluewater Charts. The app is mandatory for me now.


I would not fly coastal BC or Alaska without nautical Charts and nautical Weather!

BlueWater Chart apps can be switched back and forth between ForeFlight and Garmin Pilot in flight. So a realtime assessment can be made of the water, ocean and/or lake. For fishing I generally just mark waypoints and what type of catch (and the date), very helpful for older guys like me trying to remember stuff! The app may run on the 796, it does on the 496.

To give some contrast this is what you would see with ForeFlight for the Yaquina River... Not too safe!

Thanks for posting this. I've been meaning to poke around in Pilot more while the weather is crappy. The Smart Airspaces is nice. Wish it would tell you more about the airspaces, like times MOAs are active, frequencies of the controlling entities, etc.
Can't really look at the edge of the charts for that info in Pilot.

albravo wrote:If a guy could only choose one, which would it be? I realize there is no firm answer (Ford vs. Dodge vs. Chevy) but I'm curious to know what people with similar missions have chosen or would choose.

I would choose:

1) ipad for stability compared to android tablets
2) foreflight because I use these things about 80% for flight planning. As Phil points out, FF has the lead there. I just really don't use the tablet in flight all that much anymore.

But here's my real answer: The first one of the two that has Mexican charts wins. TAKE MY MONEY!

The only option I have in Mexico is Air Navigation Pro which is hideous compared to either of the two in question.

albravo wrote:....If a guy could only choose one, which would it be? I realize there is no firm answer (Ford vs. Dodge vs. Chevy) but I'm curious to know what people with similar missions have chosen or would choose. 80% of my flying will be in uncontrolled airspace so airport and FBO info isn't my first priority but maps, weather and backup GPS are pretty important to me,....

Just for starters, I'd suggest an inexpensive tablet (I have a $200 8" Samsung) and one of the free apps. I tried Fltplango, but prefer Avare. I also use a free wx radar app (myradar). I'm sure the pay apps are more / better than the the free ones, but Avare & MyRadar meet my needs so far. Been using them since early this year. I also use skyvector and the WS-DOT airport webcam site both on the tablet & at home on the laptop to check wx before going.

Barnstormer wrote:I’ve been using Foreflight since 2010. And since being introduced to Garmin Pilot a few years ago I’ve been using it as well. Kind of annoying to pay for both products, but each has/had features I like that the other doesn’t. The two features I especially like about Garmin Pilot are the Smart Airspace and the data driven relief map. I hated Pilot’s flight planning. My favorite features in Foreflight are it’s flight planning, fuel prices in Canada, and hotel/restaurant/car rental information for airports and the ability for users to leave comments associated with airports and FBOs.

Most of you know I took Mark Lush of Foreflight flying in the SQ2, then sat down with him with a list of features backcountry pilots would like added to Foreflight. That was a year ago. During the year since it didn’t seem like Foreflight was implementing much on our list. I relayed the same wants to Garmin at the same time (minus the features they already had) and it didn’t seem like they were adding them either.

Then a few months ago Foreflight released it’s data-driven relief map and took it one step further allowing it to be overlayed on other maps, including sectionals. Thrilled Foreflight added this, I was a bit disappointed it didn’t include “smart airspace” and found the relief map couldn’t be zoomed in quite as sharply as Garmin Pilot’s, but in all honesty in the real world I don’t think the relief map difference matters, I do want the airspaces in Foreflight to be “smart” though. Additionally I’d like the ability to change Foreflight’s airspace boundary colors to match Garmin Pilot’s as I’ve gotten used to those. Of course there were a lot of other new features added in the big Foreflight release.

And much to my pleasant surprise as Foreflight’s feature set continued to build, Garmin Pilot awoke, and came out with their big feature release, and I am thrilled. They added Weight and Balance, Electronic Checklists, Advanced Aircraft Performance, Expanded Data Sharing, Freehand Flight Routes, Integration with AOPA Flight Planner and Skyvector. Ok so none of these items are really important to me other then perhaps Freehand, but what is hugely important and part of the latest major release is the ability to “rubber band” a route directly on the map without entering edit mode, very cool.

Ever since being introduced to Garmin Pilot I’d wished one company would buy the other so I’d have the best of both in one app. Of course I knew that wasn’t going to happen and am glad it hasn’t as we’d then get no innovation at all. Competition is good, it drives innovation.

Oh and one other thing Foreflight has done, which is outstanding, is to allow Garmin’s GDL 39 to interface in addition to Stratus. Super cool, just ordered a GDL 39 3D (I can use with both Garmin Pilot and Foreflight) and sold my Stratus 2. Like I said, competition is good.

Final note. As usual there are going to be many more smaller new features with both apps that one either discovers serendipitously or by actually reading the latest manual.

Here are a couple of screens shots of my intended route this coming Wednesday to go visit my Mom (Alzheimers) and Sister in Madera CA.

Garmin Pilot


Foreflight


As pretty as the full color screen is with Garmin Pilot, I prefer to use this color option.

Garmin Pilot

I assume you know that you would have a near impossible task trying to make the same flight after January 1, 2020. You're going right over Tucson (Class C) and through a bunch of MOAs and eventually to Fresno (Class C). I see a lot of controlled airspace along that route, which requires a Mode C transponder now and which will require ADS-B Out come 2020.

I also think you have some route problems. It appears that you'll be going through some restricted areas north of El Paso (5103B, 5107K, 5107A, Ft. Bliss artillery ranges, surface on up daytime hours during the week). Then farther on, you're going through some more restricted areas northeast of Barstow (2502A, 2502N, perhaps 2502E, Ft. Irwin, continuous); (2505, China Lake NAS). Since I see from your Spot that you're on the way, I hope in reality that you're dodging these various restricted areas and not following the magenta line as you've depicted.

As I've said many times here and elsewhere, while I think there are some pilots who will be able to avoid the ADS-B Out mandate because of where they fly, for the vast majority of us, we'll really be hamstrung if we tried to fly across country without it.

In the meanwhile, I'm already seeing some real benefits to my flying, although not as much as there will be when most folks have had it installed. I really like having the visual and verbal traffic call outs, often for traffic I don't and won't see--it's nice to know that if it's a potential problem, I'll learn about it before I can see it, and if it's not a problem, that I don't have to worry about it.

Cary

I wish FF would do offline high res topo maps as an option. I have bluewater - but I guess you need a separate app for topo maps on land. For that, I'd look at something like Gaia GPS:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/gaia-gp ... 27297?mt=8

Cary, I dodge it all. Just set up the route with fuel stops or overnight stops and an occasional waypoint as a turning point. It's easy to avoid controlled air space in the central and western US. Suspect that will be the case for as long as I fly.


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