A while back I spoke with a guy about SEAT flying and how to get in. He told me to go get ~1000hrs of ag time and then give him a call. My question is can you realistically fly ag on a restricted commercial ticket? I don't have IFR or Com ticket at this point. If I get serious should I get myself a applicator license from the state or wait till I get hired on somewhere and let the employer tell me what they want done? How is that employer going to feel about training a new ag pilot knowing they are going to leave in a couple seasons? Do any ag outfits have "standby" pilots? Not paid "standby" but just someone they can call when their regular pilot needs time off. What are some things a pilot like myself, 350hr PPL, can do to open the door?

Whee,

I have trained ag pilots who had no papers at all, and they did well. That was a long time ago in a free country far away. A commercial is all that is required in Part 137 if you are checked out by the chief pilot. A private if you a farmer doing only what you own or lease. Not a good idea, however. Kingsley's Plane Cents Aviation at Miller, MO charge a commercial pilot $17,000 just for the ag training. I left there in a dispute over the hiring of ag instructors who do not have enough ag experience and don't really care to do or teach anything except race tracking in big flat circles. You could do that without any training.

Bring your Luscombe to Aurora, Missouri 2h2 and I will train you for references and help selling my book. When I crashed last time, first time I was ever hurt, they made me take a medical which I failed. They suspended my commercial, so I can't legally charge. No problem. I love to fly. I do pretty good with nose geared airplanes but my right leg and ankle, crushed in the crash, doesn't flex well enough for tailwheel. Also I can't make toe brakes work. Never use them anyway. Instructing is talking not flying. I hardly ever flew/demonstrated as a healthy, younger instructor anyway. I always told my student I had lots of time. Why should I be doing the flying.

The best way to get into ag is to either start out loading or buy a Pawnee or CallAir. I did the latter. Pawnees are way too high now. Most went to Bolivia. If you can find a CallAir and aren't scared of wood wings, they are hart to find but cheaper. All instruction in a single seater is with the instructor on the ground with a radio anyway. Even when you are paying $17,000 for it.

Email me an I will send you the latest edit of Safe Maneuvering Flight Techniques. It has video of Greg/soyAnarchisto doing some of my stuff with me in his Cub.

Whatever you do, keep in touch. Email or call any time. I am very bored with retirement.

Jim Dulin
504 Docker Street
Crane, MO 65633
417-830-0638

Whee,

Take contact up on his offer.

What the gent told you about SEAT flying is true, and about the dumbest requirement in aviation. Just because you're flying an Ag type plane doesn't mean there is any other similarity between SEAT and AG flying, really. Nevertheless, it is what it is....

The way most pilots get in to Ag flying is by working as a loader for a few seasons, and getting some training on slow spraying days. There are a couple big outfits that hire pilots as loaders and transition them into flying over a few seasons. An operator that is starting to phase into retirement or one who is looking to expand his operation may do the same, but most folks start by loading.....there's a lot more to spraying than just the flying.......

A restricted commercial works fine if all you ever do is spray.

Good luck.

MTV

Whee,

Another thought, long range, is to get with MTV on some float training. The DPE I know in Prescott is training forest service pilots in an Air Tractor 802 on floats. Evidently they are looking for smaller, easier to maintain, more flexible airplanes for the future. Round engines are great but getting as expensive to maintain as jets nowdays. All the WWII stuff pickled in cans is long gone now. I can't imagine what it would cost to keep up a B-17 with four big radials. I'm a heck of a swimmer and a fair sailor, but I've never been on floats.

In the process of trying to find out what you guys meant by SEAT training. Finding it wasn't easy, but found a site with some online training courses. Might be an interest to some. https://www.iat.gov/Training/pages/online.asp
includes- Single Engine Air Tanker or SEAT training

The Ag pilot I know is training his son from the back seat of a scout, flying wires and stuff. He says the spray pilot schools aren't worth the money. Having a front row seat to the training, the wrecks, and the drama, it appears that turbine training would be something you'll need, round engines are not penciling out, at least at our elevation. They must be a handful to get off the ground, good pilots struggle with loads of water during their training, I've seen some good loops with thrushes out in the ruderbagers by good pilots. The only thing more offensive than spending the money training a pilot only to have them leave seems to be having them stay and start competing, so yes, they hire gypsy spray pilots, in fact sometimes that's preferred. I have an RV hookup at my hangar that sees a lot of use by transient spray pilots, they seem to enjoy traveling around and I think they make decent money. The new planes with ac and aileron and elevator servos look like a pretty comfortable way to spend a summer day.

Whee, sounds like you need to get in touch with G3. He's out of Gooding. Valley Air Services at Hubler would be good folks to talk to, also.

Good luck!

Whee,
There a several ag pilots and operators on this forum, and even a few tanker guys. Make your rounds, buy a few lunches and LISTEN to what they have to offer...

These fields are so far removed from what the public perception is that any information gathered from someone who is not currently active in either is not worth much.

58Skylane wrote:Whee, sounds like you need to get in touch with G3. He's out of Gooding. Valley Air Services at Hubler would be good folks to talk to, also.

Good luck!

What he said... G is golden, but extremely busy... so good luck there...

Nosedragger wrote: The new planes with ac and aileron and elevator servos look like a pretty comfortable way to spend a summer day.

… Meh… not so much…
or at least not always

You see… 4 o'clock (4PM) yesterday afternoon I strapped into one precisely like that…

And when I did, not one grower, not one advisor cared in the least what the desert afternoon air was like.
No one cared that the thermals that were still touching off in the afternoon sky were enough to boil the air like some nasty concoction fit only for a witchs cauldron. Calling the unsettled spring air tumultuos would be an understatement. People from central Nevada know the air I'm talking about... It's the air that spells Miller time... because no one in their right mind would be flying ...

They also didn't seem bothered that it would be 4 hours of wooping before the sky settled enough to get along with. But it doesn't get much better then, because all at once the sky goes flat. Then there's not a breath of wind, and not a hint of vertical movement. You can't keep out of your vorticies regardless of which side you fly it from, The turns kick your ass, and you can't keep the oil off the windscreen. Not sure what's worse now… the fact that you are having a hard time seeing through the slime on the windshield, or the fact that you are now in a full blown inversion and have to put the nix on any more herbicide work for the evening… Someone's not going to be happy...

But hey… by then I'm in my groove and pushing hard…. because there's hay to make…. literally … In so much of a groove that it's not until an hour ago, (4 AM now) when I finally climb out of the cockpit that it really hits me… I am spent!

The balls of my feet hurt from jabbing the rudders, My knees are jello from the same…
My lower back is throbbing from a few thousand high G turns. High G because we were loaded up...
My arms are pumped from fighting various vorticies throughout the night...
My neck , and that space between my shoulder blades are burning from carrying that bowling ball around on my head all night...
My ears are sore from 12 hours of foamy ear plugs, and my ear drums are ringing from the iPod being set high enough to over power the shriek of the Pratt. Although truth be told, the prop alone would set my tinitus off, the music just soothes it…
My voice is coarse from barking out mixes to my loader, or profanities at my flying partner...
My eyes are burning, some days it's from the spent Jet A, others it's from straining to see the bad juju stuff that tries to grab a wing in the darkness… some nights it's from trying to find the stakes that mark where partial jobs start and end... and on some days it's just from trying to get through the special instructions of a rec in a dark cockpit… tonight I had one that said "please spray the 18 acres of Kale south of the Arugula and north of the Fennel" !!! Really??? first off who eats this shit? and second off, I sure would like to get that advisor in the airplane and see if he can show me the difference between Kale and Arugula while navigating the moonless night at 8' AGL and a buck fifty on the speedo… Oh and don't forget to either pull up or not cut the wire at the end of the field with the tail as you go under…
I stink… I stink, because when the sky went flat my windshield got covered in Malation, Lorsban, Dimethoate, and who knows how many other smelly toxins… and from the windscreen, they slide down the side of the cockpit… right to the vent for that wonderful air conditioner...
I am drenched in sweat (smelly sweat)
Did I mention I'm spent?

So after all that I sit here at the breakfast table eating a wilted Ceaser salad that my sweetie made last night, and pouring myself into a tall glass of Crown XR…

Someone who didn't know me better might actually think I'm bitter…
Someone who does know me better knows I could have just as easily poured myself into the cub after all that for a sunrise river flight…

It's either in your blood, or it's not…

Take care, Rob

Rob wrote:So after all that I sit here at the breakfast table eating a wilted Ceaser salad that my sweetie made last night, and pouring myself into a tall glass of Crown XR…

Someone who didn't know me better might actually think I'm bitter…
Someone who does know me better knows I could have just as easily poured myself into the cub after all that for a sunrise river flight…

It's either in your blood, or it's not…

Take care, Rob

Awesome, awesome Rob! And have your sweetie add some Arugula to your Ceasar next time, adds a nice bite. As far as the Kale goes, I always thought that was just a weed.

I wonder why the ag guys have such a hard time recruiting new prospects, sure sounds glamorous.

150 is really scary in the daytime. At night, not me man. Have a good season Rob. Keep the sticky side down.

Jim

Thanks for the thoughts guys. I'd really like to go visit Contact but right now I don't have the time. If I get real serious about this then I'll make the time. Thanks for the fantastic offer Contact!

I've thought about getting a hold of G3 but I know he is really busy so I don't feel like I should bother him till I'm ready to jump in.

Parts of Rob's story sounds great but then stuff like getting beat up in rough air with no option to quite make me wonder if I should just go back to a desk job

Rob wrote:Whee,
There a several ag pilots and operators on this forum, and even a few tanker guys. Make your rounds, buy a few lunches and LISTEN to what they have to offer...

These fields are so far removed from what the public perception is that any information gathered from someone who is not currently active in either is not worth much.

58Skylane wrote:Whee, sounds like you need to get in touch with G3. He's out of Gooding. Valley Air Services at Hubler would be good folks to talk to, also.

Good luck!

What he said... G is golden, but extremely busy... so good luck there...

Which might be a good thing. The busier he is, the more help he'll need? Would be a great opportunity to help with truck driving duties, cleaning and loading the planes and just be around to learn. Ag flying is almost a 24/7 operation, so even if somebody like Whee has another full time job, there's still time after work or on the weekends to link up with somebody like G3 to help and learn.

If "X" type of flying job hooks you, it'll take more than a little bumpy air and stinking every day to keep you from doing it.

Welcome to the real world of driving airplanes for a living. It's mostly a lot of hard work, and doing awesome shit that no one but you is gonna know about.

Gump

GumpAir wrote:If "X" type of flying job hooks you, it'll take more than a little bumpy air and stinking every day to keep you from doing it.

Welcome to the real world of driving airplanes for a living. It's mostly a lot of hard work, and doing awesome shit that no one but you is gonna know about.

Gump

And I would take any crappy day of flying in Idaho over any desk job!

Just like my worse day of chaining up my rig in sub zero Wx in Wyoming a few weeks ago. Sure it sucked! But it was still better than working in the office in SoCal!!

Rob wrote:

Nosedragger wrote: The new planes with ac and aileron and elevator servos look like a pretty comfortable way to spend a summer day.

… Meh… not so much…
or at least not always

You see… 4 o'clock (4PM) yesterday afternoon I strapped into one precisely like that…

And when I did, not one grower, not one advisor cared in the least what the desert afternoon air was like.
No one cared that the thermals that were still touching off in the afternoon sky were enough to boil the air like some nasty concoction fit only for a witchs cauldron. Calling the unsettled spring air tumultuos would be an understatement. People from central Nevada know the air I'm talking about... It's the air that spells Miller time... because no one in their right mind would be flying ...

They also didn't seem bothered that it would be 4 hours of wooping before the sky settled enough to get along with. But it doesn't get much better then, because all at once the sky goes flat. Then there's not a breath of wind, and not a hint of vertical movement. You can't keep out of your vorticies regardless of which side you fly it from, The turns kick your ass, and you can't keep the oil off the windscreen. Not sure what's worse now… the fact that you are having a hard time seeing through the slime on the windshield, or the fact that you are now in a full blown inversion and have to put the nix on any more herbicide work for the evening… Someone's not going to be happy...

But hey… by then I'm in my groove and pushing hard…. because there's hay to make…. literally … In so much of a groove that it's not until an hour ago, (4 AM now) when I finally climb out of the cockpit that it really hits me… I am spent!

The balls of my feet hurt from jabbing the rudders, My knees are jello from the same…
My lower back is throbbing from a few thousand high G turns. High G because we were loaded up...
My arms are pumped from fighting various vorticies throughout the night...
My neck , and that space between my shoulder blades are burning from carrying that bowling ball around on my head all night...
My ears are sore from 12 hours of foamy ear plugs, and my ear drums are ringing from the iPod being set high enough to over power the shriek of the Pratt. Although truth be told, the prop alone would set my tinitus off, the music just soothes it…
My voice is coarse from barking out mixes to my loader, or profanities at my flying partner...
My eyes are burning, some days it's from the spent Jet A, others it's from straining to see the bad juju stuff that tries to grab a wing in the darkness… some nights it's from trying to find the stakes that mark where partial jobs start and end... and on some days it's just from trying to get through the special instructions of a rec in a dark cockpit… tonight I had one that said "please spray the 18 acres of Kale south of the Arugula and north of the Fennel" !!! Really??? first off who eats this shit? and second off, I sure would like to get that advisor in the airplane and see if he can show me the difference between Kale and Arugula while navigating the moonless night at 8' AGL and a buck fifty on the speedo… Oh and don't forget to either pull up or not cut the wire at the end of the field with the tail as you go under…
I stink… I stink, because when the sky went flat my windshield got covered in Malation, Lorsban, Dimethoate, and who knows how many other smelly toxins… and from the windscreen, they slide down the side of the cockpit… right to the vent for that wonderful air conditioner...
I am drenched in sweat (smelly sweat)
Did I mention I'm spent?

So after all that I sit here at the breakfast table eating a wilted Ceaser salad that my sweetie made last night, and pouring myself into a tall glass of Crown XR…

Someone who didn't know me better might actually think I'm bitter…
Someone who does know me better knows I could have just as easily poured myself into the cub after all that for a sunrise river flight…

It's either in your blood, or it's not…

Take care, Rob

Great Post!!!! I like your style!

Stay safe.

Sierra Victor wrote:

Great Post!!!! I like your style!

Stay safe.

X2!! Awesome post, Rob!!

By the way. Arugula is pretty good. Put a little in your regular salad and BAM!! A burst of fantastic flavor in your mouth! I'm not much of a Kale lover, but it's one of the most nutritious of the greens. Super good for you!!

Yes, gotta love the ditch-weed in the salad. What is too tough and stringy to be choked - down can be stockpiled on the edge of the plate for later use as dental floss.

Everybody's had what I think would be good advice...

But Rob... Holy cow, I thought I was in the cockpit with you! What a night!

Sounds like a really cool but really tough job. I'm glad guys like you are out there putting the effort in so my wife can buy fancy leafy greens at the super!