Backcountry Pilot • help a newbie make a decision... ownership vs. partnership

help a newbie make a decision... ownership vs. partnership

Owning an aircraft has many special considerations like financing, taxes, inspections, registration, and even partnerships. You can post questions on buying and selling procedure. Please post type-specific questions and topics in the Types forum.
24 postsPage 1 of 21, 2

help a newbie make a decision... ownership vs. partnership

Pretty new around these parts, but been lurking and love the forum.

I've got a wife and two small kids (3 and 6). Typical mission is to fly the four of us from Boise to Cascade for the weekend (got a place to stay there and a $700 airport van :)). Maybe breakfast at McCall, etc. 50% (historically) is me just messing around learning the plane. No real backcountry experience, though once I get a plane it is on my list. We do have a long cross country planned for this summer to visit a friend in Minnesota though this will probably be a once in a lifetime trip and we have plenty of time to enjoy the scenery.

I don't picture anything crazy the next 5 years, would be thrilled to take the family or my dad camping at JC, Pine, or Smith Prairie. Recently got my t/w endorsement in a C-170, but I think I want a training-wheeler for my first plane to own.

So the time has come for me to make a decision. Have never owned an airplane before. I've got enough cash socked away where I can either enter into an existing (quarter) partnership in a 180HP C-172, or buy a something like a mid-time Tripacer (150HP) outright. Maybe a Cherokee-180, though I am partial to high wings.

I originally hated the look of Tripacers but they are starting to grow on me. Would you rather have a 1/4 of a 180HP C172, or a PA22-150 all to yourself (good and bad!). Opinions appricated!
scottf offline
User avatar
Posts: 650
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:56 am
Location: Meridian, ID
FindMeSpot URL: http://share.findmespot.com/shared/face ... cbQCpIqefS

Re: help a newbie make a decision... ownership vs. partnersh

Personally, I prefer to own outright, but I do have a half share in a really nice Auster with a really neat guy. I have a number of customers in syndicates/partnerships and they always moan about the other partners.... Might cost you a little more but it's all yours, you can do what you like with it and no arguing over the ashtrays full of gum wrappers and scratches on the windscreen
onefitty offline
Posts: 233
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:39 pm
Location: Here

Re: help a newbie make a decision... ownership vs. partnersh

Yeah that's the way I am thinking tonight as well. Part of my wants to own something even if it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The sensible side of me realizes how often that airplane would sit on the ground.

A follow up but related question... say you want upgrade 5 or 10 years down the road. What do you think it easier to liquidate? A share in a partnership or an entire plane? I realize it depends on what the economy is doing, but overall is it easier to sell an airplane or a piece of one?
scottf offline
User avatar
Posts: 650
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:56 am
Location: Meridian, ID
FindMeSpot URL: http://share.findmespot.com/shared/face ... cbQCpIqefS

Re: help a newbie make a decision... ownership vs. partnersh

No question it's easier to unload a whole airplane than a share. Think about it - if you're selling an airplane, buyers may be found literally anywhere in the world. To sell a share in a partnership you need to find someone who:
- wants to buy into a partnership
- wants that particular type of aircraft
- lives in the right geographic area (close to where the aircraft is based)
- is acceptable to the other partners
- finds the other partners acceptable
- has the funds (it's often easier to finance a whole airplane than a share in one).

I probably left something out. Kinda like finding a needle in a haystack.

Best,
O-2
OscarDeuce offline
Posts: 277
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:22 pm
Location: Alexandria VA

Re: help a newbie make a decision... ownership vs. partnersh

Considered a partnership 18 years ago. Looked at several and found out that what was wanted was someone to pay for an overhaul, expensive work, etc. to get the partner/partners in the air. NOT what I wanted! Yes there are good partnerships out there and I know of some and they have lasted a long time. For myself I want to be able to go where I want, any time I want so the plane is there any time I want to fly. When I was learning to fly I rented and there was many a time I could not fly because the plane was busy. Only YOU know what you can afford for the time YOU want to fly, as for me the plane is always full of fuel ready to go somewhere.
HC
hicountry offline
User avatar
Posts: 1667
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:40 pm
Location: SIDNEY NE
'05 7GCBC High Country Explorer
The faster I go , the farther behind I get.

Re: help a newbie make a decision... ownership vs. partnersh

Had to make the same decisión 10 years ago. Decided I didnt want a partner. Found a C175B with O-360 and never looked back. Can get in and out of reasonable back country strips, cruises at 124 kts, and is easy to maintain. Most importantly, I always find it just the way I left it. Old cigars and everything. :?
RangeFlyer offline
User avatar
Posts: 75
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:23 pm
Location: El Paso
Dave R.

Re: help a newbie make a decision... ownership vs. partnersh

If you can find the perfect 1 partner I can see it would work.

I was going to do that but my perfect partner died before we had the chance to buy a 206.

So now I am the sole owner of my plane and love it.

Cheers
OregonMaule offline
User avatar
Posts: 6977
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:44 pm
Location: Orygun
My SPOT page

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety". Ben Franklin
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin

Re: help a newbie make a decision... ownership vs. partnersh

Thanks all. Tough deciding against a more capable plane vs a meager Tripacer but you've given me lots to think about. The autofuel STC for the Tripacer is pretty compelling too, and my thinking is if I needed more plane down the road there will probably always be a market for an entry level plane. Plus the wife thinks they are cute, might need her eyes checked.
scottf offline
User avatar
Posts: 650
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:56 am
Location: Meridian, ID
FindMeSpot URL: http://share.findmespot.com/shared/face ... cbQCpIqefS

Re: help a newbie make a decision... ownership vs. partnersh

I was in a partnership years ago, which started out pretty OK--compatible people (there were 3 of us), the right airplane (a low time 182), affordable for me. We sat down and talked for a couple hours about what each of us wanted in a partnership, and then put it into a pretty usable partnership agreement.

Over the first few years, things worked really well. We upgraded the 182 a little by improving the avionics, adding wingtip strobes, etc. We agreed that generally speaking, business flying came first, but otherwise, use was on a first come/first served basis, just call the other guys if any of us wanted to take the airplane for awhile. We had an airplane bank account, and the hourly costs we charged ourselves went in there and were used for all maintenance expenses including reserves for overhaul; we paid the fixed costs of the promissory note, hangar, insurance, etc. monthly, each paying 1/3.

But over time, one partner sold his share, then when that second one wanted to move away, he couldn't find a buyer, so the 2 of us remaining bought him out. Things continued to work OK, until my pard wanted a faster airplane--just about the time Cessna brought out the 182RG. While we muddled around trying to decide on buying that, they turbo'd it, and that's what we bought. But I couldn't afford to go half of a new airplane, so we ended up in an unequal partnership, 1/6--5/6 for purposes of the promissory note, everything else 1/2--1/2, and of course, the hourly costs went up exponentially. As you can imagine, he began to act like he was the owner and that I was just a tenant--but he wanted me to handle all the non-flying details like maintaining the charts and arranging for mechanical work. And even if we'd talked about it well in advance, if I took the airplane for a couple weeks such as for vacation, I took a lot of flack when I returned for making the airplane unavailable for him.

It got worse when only a few years later, he wanted to swap the TR182 for a T210. I agreed to a 1/12--11/12 ownership arrangement for purposes of the promissory note, but that didn't last very long--I couldn't afford the hourly costs, and it took all the fun out of flying, not to mention the "it's mine, you're just a tenant" mentality I was dealing with. When I returned from a vacation and took more than the usual flack, both for being gone and for a prop ding, that was the last straw, and I got out--just gave him my share.

So then I went many years of just renting, until I came into an inheritance which allowed me to buy my LRB, a 1963 P172D. I've had her now for 9+ years, and having her all to myself has been great (except when it comes to expenses). I do with her what I want, when I want, whether it's going somewhere or adding to or modifying her. I don't have to consult with anyone about whether something should be done (other than my IA, of course), and consequently, as the gadget freak that I am, she has additions and mods that others might not like but which suit me--the list takes a full page typewritten single-spaced.

The obvious downside of sole ownership is that there's no one to share expenses with, and occasionally that is painful. "Clean" annuals are uncommon--there's always something that needs repairing or replacing, and if the annual itself is pretty clean, invariably I'll want to do an upgrade of some sort. But she's my baby, so I don't too often complain about the expense.

Those are my rambling thoughts, for whatever it's worth.

Cary
Cary offline
User avatar
Posts: 3801
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:49 pm
Location: Fort Collins, CO
"I have slipped the surly bonds of earth..., put out my hand and touched the face of God." J.G. Magee

Re: help a newbie make a decision... ownership vs. partnersh

Beware of Airplane Induced Divorce Syndrome if it is going to present any sort of financial hardship. I have been lucky in that regard, others not so much.
gbflyer offline
User avatar
Posts: 2317
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:35 pm
Location: SE Alaska

Re: help a newbie make a decision... ownership vs. partnersh

Just wondering what makes the tripacer so "meager" to a 172" I have a lot of hours in both planes, and I would take the tripacer hands down over the 172. Put a climb prop on that tripacer and I think you will be shocked at the performance. My biggest gripe on the tripacer in soft field work is the direct link nose steering. With toe brakes its not quite so bad, but with a single johnson bar brake I was not crasy about playing with it in the sand on the beaches. Other than that it was a great plane!

If you decide you want a tail dragger in a few years, you can either convert the one you have, or sell it for probably what you have into it and get a TD.

I think the pacer is one of the most under rated planes on the market today. Take the back seat out and you have a huge cargo area and it will haul what ever you can fit in there (with a climb prop). Even with a 82X41 I could still cruise 95-100 and get out QUICK.
akavidflyer offline
User avatar
Posts: 521
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:36 pm
Location: Soldotna AK

Re: help a newbie make a decision... ownership vs. partnersh

Mostly just that the 172 of interest has a 180hp conversion, so it has a pretty healthy useful load and performance. From what I hear the PA22 will perform on par or better than a stock 172 of the same era.

Just out of curiosity, what's a ballpark cost to convert a Tripacer to a pa22/20 tailwheel?
scottf offline
User avatar
Posts: 650
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:56 am
Location: Meridian, ID
FindMeSpot URL: http://share.findmespot.com/shared/face ... cbQCpIqefS

Re: help a newbie make a decision... ownership vs. partnersh

I have nothing to add except...I love my PA-22...that is all...
Troy Hamon offline
User avatar
Posts: 913
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:27 am
Location: King Salmon
FindMeSpot URL: http://share.findmespot.com/shared/face ... 04iX0FXjV2
Aircraft: Piper PA-22

Re: help a newbie make a decision... ownership vs. partnersh

I say buy the 150hp milkstool and don't look back! That will take you just about anywhere in the Idaho backcountry.
robw56 offline
User avatar
Posts: 3263
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:30 pm
Location: Ward
Aircraft: 1957 C-180A

Re: help a newbie make a decision... ownership vs. partnersh

You can't beat the 150 hp Tri-Pacer for a good, inexpensive mountain airplane. Much better than O-300 172, much better than O-320 172, better than H2AD 160 hp 172, and not quite as good as 182. In mud and tall grass, you go back and push the tail down to steer with momma driving.
contactflying offline
Posts: 4972
Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:36 pm
Location: Aurora, Missouri 2H2
Download my free "https://tinyurl.com/Safe-Maneuvering" e-book.

Re: help a newbie make a decision... ownership vs. partnersh

Alright you guys have convinced me. Think I will puruse the ownership route... it just sounds like way more fun when you have your very own.
scottf offline
User avatar
Posts: 650
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:56 am
Location: Meridian, ID
FindMeSpot URL: http://share.findmespot.com/shared/face ... cbQCpIqefS

Re: help a newbie make a decision... ownership vs. partnersh

Well, today I am the sole owner of a new (to me) airplane. It's almost as old as my dad, the panel is old as dirt, but it flies nice and I've got a constant smile on my face as I am sure you can all relate. PA-22-150. Picked her up this morning, spent an hour getting a CFI checkout, then off on a 260nm cross country to her new home in Nampa. Landings have been no problem, it is just figuring out how to untrain myself to get it to land where I want. I am sure a few hours of burning up the pattern will help.

Image
20130601_120232.jpg by scottf, on Flickr


Anyway, thanks for all your responses, and a big thanks to Tim (qmdv) for being a great help through the deal.

Image
20130601_115151.jpg by scottf, on Flickr

Already have my first squawk. If you see an inspection plate somewhere between Burns and Nampa let me know. :wink:


Image
plane2 by scottf, on Flickr
scottf offline
User avatar
Posts: 650
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:56 am
Location: Meridian, ID
FindMeSpot URL: http://share.findmespot.com/shared/face ... cbQCpIqefS

Re: help a newbie make a decision... ownership vs. partnersh

Nice job! Second squawk is to deal with that problem under the nose. j/k ;-)
soyAnarchisto offline
Supporter
User avatar
Posts: 1975
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:23 pm
Location: Boulder, CO
Aircraft: 1955 Cessna 180

Re: help a newbie make a decision... ownership vs. partnersh

Very cool...

Gump
GumpAir offline
User avatar
Posts: 4557
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:14 am
Location: Lost somewhere in Nevada
Aircraft: Old Clunker

Re: help a newbie make a decision... ownership vs. partnersh

Congrats! I still feel the soreness in my checks from that smile from my flight home with 40Z in January. You made the right call on ownership. Hope to see you in the backcountry this summer!
Grassstrippilot offline
Knowledge Base Author
User avatar
Posts: 3536
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 6:17 am
Location: Syracuse, UT
FindMeSpot URL: https://share.garmin.com/WolfAdventures
Aircraft: Cessna 205

DISPLAY OPTIONS

Next
24 postsPage 1 of 21, 2

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

Latest Features

Latest Knowledge Base