My wife and I have been talking about aircraft ownership, and I couldn't be happier. We tend to be planners, so I'm trying to get an idea about the point where breaking point is between renting and owning. I realize that there are many factors that come into play with how things actually work out. Because I don't know that much about the costs of owning, I thought I should mention the costs I'm anticipating and the type of flying I'm planning on doing and see what you all think.

The flying that I do currently is mostly local flying within about an hour of my home base (KCVO). If that was all I was planning on doing, I'd just stick with the flying club (Oregon State Flying Club). They have a 162 for $75/hr, 172M for $100/hr and a 172SP for $125 (with G1000). I think these rates are excellent. The only problem I have is that my wife really wants to do longer trips and vacations by plane, including plane camping. I'm required to pay for 2 hours per night I keep any plane, and that's where things get bad. Flying to Pacific City for the weekend is ~$150-400 just because of the mandatory hours. I would like to expand to flying to Seattle, Reno/Tahoe, Sunriver, NorCal, maybe Victoria BC. Because the primary use is longer distance flights with people, a 4-seater is a must and I'd like basic off-airport competency. This is my basic reason for specifying a 172, that and I just like Cessnas.

That said, from what I gather, the costs of ownership per month are:

Plane payments: $400 (30-40k plane over 10 years, which I would try to pay off much earlier)
Insurance: $100 (around $1200/yr)
Annual: $100 (again, assuming $1200 annual)
Parking: ??? (I have no idea. I'm not against the idea of parking outside, but I'd prefer a hanger)

This comes up (so far) to be around my current flying budget (I get to spend around $600 a month)
Now, I have to think about fuel. Assuming AvGas, though I'd think about the MoGas STC, at $5/gal and 8 gal/hr burn. That takes it to $40 /hr. So, If I fly the same 6 hours a month, that's an additional $240/mo. So, I'm clearly not there yet.

This is some naive math that I've come up with. What has been your experiences? I would love to come up with someone to partner with. My step dad is a pilot, and he's supposed to be moving in to town soon. That would change the math quite a bit. I'm assuming that insurance would change a little, but the payments and annual would be split effectively.

If you are a member of AOPA, go to their website and visit their cost estimator and plug in your airplane info. The output will be your fixed and variable costs with a cost per hour result.

If cost is a concern, a 172 is probably on the more economical side than many airplanes out there. However, if you intend to carry people, I don't really consider a 172 to be a 4-place travelling airplane because you will probably need to leave fuel behind to fit 4 adults and compromise your range. A 182 will be better, but at higher cost.

The cost of ownership can be frightening. When you figure in the hangar which up here in Alaska, if you can even find one, can run upwards of $600/mo for a T-hangar, $125 per hour to rent a 172 with G1000 looks pretty good even if you have to pay overnight charges.

You absolutely must figure in the cost for engine overhaul and avionics maintenance costs.

I run a 185 and my cost per hour assuming 100 hours per year is $240. If I fly more (usually 150 hrs per year), the cost per hour will go down, but knowing what I pay for at least 100 hour per year is good to know. That means that the airplane at 100 hour per year costs me $24,000 for the privilege of ownership each year. (I have a hangar and my association dues and utilities are included in this cost estimate).

Airplane ownership is not necessarily about being cheaper than renting. It is about the convenience of pulling your airplane out of the hangar and going flying without the logistical hassles of the rental process. The rental process is nice because when you want to go pleasure flying by yourself, rent the 150. When you want to carry people, rent the 182......or Mooney

Good luck.

Impossible, impractically difficult question, but one that we all need to answer at some time or another if only to determine whether we can afford to do this stuff at all. Maybe we'd be better off slashing our wrists and saying to hell with it.

Those factors you've listed are a good starting place. You may want to add something for known unknowns like the things that break and previously deferred maintenance by your airplane's former owners. There will be some; no $40K airplane is pristine. There are those who will advise you to set up accounts for engine and prop overhaul but I've never thought that much of that approach. Just know it's coming I guess.

Once you do all those calculations you will almost certainly come to understand how fruitless and asinine this whole recreational flying enterprise is from a financial standpoint. It will NOT pencil out. But that's really not the point of it all. Here's another way to look at it.

Have you ever stopped to consider just how futile it is to pay for rent and groceries every month? What an enormous waste of money! To make it worse, not only do you have nothing to show for it at month's end but then you have to start the whole process over again with another healthy chunk of hard earned dollars at the first of next month! And, that's just the start. Take for instance if you and the wife have a couple of kids. Girl kids say. Well, I know from experience that they'll want a ski boat at around the time when their bathing suit tops begin to fill out. And you'll need a big pickup truck or motor home to tow it with. Now price out all the camping gear, and other necessaries to go along with that. Do yourself a favor, price out all those other lifestyle choices you make as you move through life with the same vigor that you take to the flying budget and see how you do. Let's say you buy a 10 year old Bounder motor home for that same $50K that you'll be putting in the airplane. Can you park it at home or do you have to pay to store it in a commercial yard? The Bounder gets about 7 miles a gallon and the boat burns about 60 gallons an hour running all over the lake. Also note that when the Bounder is 20 years old it's worth squat. Or less. You'll be putting a whole shitload of money into your ski boat too. Trust me. In the end you'll get ten cents on the dollar when your kids leave for college. Then what? All that money down the drain and you didn't get to do any flying at all. Think about it.

Life costs. Get a second job and don't think about it too much. You'll be better off.


EB

FWIW you and the wife can have a lot more fun for a LOT cheaper flying something like a Kitfox or Highlander over a 172. I can't carry much and it takes me forever to get there but I still manage to make it to the backcountry for pretty affordable.

After the buy in cost, I am close to $100 an hour to fly a Maule M7 235HP, that doesn't count broken parts. AKA the stupid tax! I fly 250-270 hours a year. A 172 will be a little less. No matter how you slice it, it is not a cheap hobby. But who wants to be the richest guy in the grave yard?

Cheers...Rob

The great thing is that after you get the airplane, every time you go somewhere that you could get to with the plane, you'll be wasteful if you don't use it. Definitely buy one.

As for which one, I'll recommend you stick with something basic and inexpensive, and if you like Cessnas then the 172 is a great way to go. If you want something that costs a little less, there are some other options out there, but a 172 should get you in the game.

Until you have flown around in your 172 for about 3 years, you should resist the urge to get something bigger. I say this because you sound concerned about the costs. If you aren't sure you can afford it, I definitely would stick with the simpler, lower-powered, fixed-pitch prop scale, and that means 172, not 182. Just my opinion. There are lots of great planes out there. A 172 is easily sold if you eventually decide you want something more speedy or larger.

There is a potentially a lot of personal value to AC ownership, depending on how you use your plane. The convenience and utility of owning your own plane opens up a whole new world. If you use it for trips, vacations, basic transportaion, etc then you are partially offsetting those costs by the cost of what/how you'd be doing those things without the plane. Can you now get by with less expensive cars because you won't be using those as much? Can you avoid buying new cars every few years and the associated capital depreciation on those? At least the capital you spend on a plane typically is maintained since depreciation is less, often much less.

Owning is not cheap, and when i've run the numbers before, the brakeven point between buying and renting is about 80 hours+\- for that class of plane. I always fly more when I own rather than rent. flying clubs are a good value, but it sounds like you are ready to move to the next level. It is likely just a matter of when. Go into ownership with your eyes open. Are you mechanically inclined? Learn all you can about maintaining planes before you buy and use that knowledge to reduce ownership costs. Does your club have a maintenance officer? Work your way into that position or pal around with those folks and ask them to show you the ins and outs.

Another option is a partnership, but that comes with its own risks however with the right people, it certainly significantly reduces the fixed ownership costs (hanger, insurance, annuals, etc).

Keep researching and pursuing your goal of ownership. You'll get to the point when you know it is the right thing for you to do, not just because of cost, but other factors. When that time comes, and it sounds like you are getting close, just take the plunge and don't look back. It can be a very rewarding life experience.

About $100/hr for the Citabria. Bought new in '06 for cash so my expences are for Hangar, Annuals, Insurance, gas and oil. Then there is the depreciation. I've heard you have to own a plane for about 6 years to break even IF it is a average market on initial cost of the airplane vs selling. I bought my '52 Cessna 170B for 21K and sold it ten years later for 38K but I spent some time fixing a lot of little things to keep it maintained. I usually fly about 100hr/year and this I figured out years ago was the break even point between renting and ownership. So if you're going to buy an airplane you need to fly it or it's just not worth owning. By the way I've kept track of all of my expenses since I started flying back in '93 and as Rob says you just as well spend it now ($$$$$) because it does you no good after you've decided to take a dirt nap.
HC

It takes very creative math to pencil airplane ownership. You have to factor psychological well being and offset cost of penis enhancement pills. It can be done if you use big enough rationalization numbers. Don't forget to have a doohickmeir fund to replace expensive stuff under the dash you didn't know you owned. It's a cool bucket list item to check off.

How many hours/miles to break even if you buy a new Ford F150 pickup?

Do you factor in cost of gas, insurance, routine maint and oil changes, and vehicle replacement vs taking a taxi or riding the city bus? How about going in partners with your next door neighbors, and buy a truck together.

You can't "justify" an airplane, any more than you can buying a new vehicle of any kind. Bottom line it's gonna cost $$$$. All a matter of what it's worth to you.

Gump

Do like most pilots and drive a shitty car. I buy retired courtesy cars so i can afford avgas.

To help with your estimations, a city hanger at KCVO goes for around $120 for the non-electric hangers, the nicer privately owned hangers are usually full, but become available now and then and are around $140 a month. Some will discount 1 month if you pay for a year up front.

I would also suggest looking at experimental airplanes, maintenance costs can sometimes be lower and you typically are getting a newer airplane. However, 4 seat option will cost you more than a C172.

Another thought, is to go with a C182 or something your club doesn't have and lease it back to them to offset your costs.

If you would like to take a look at a KCVO hanger example PM me, I'd be happy to show you one of the Lanny Zoeller hangers.

hpux735 wrote:My wife and I have been talking about aircraft ownership, and I couldn't be happier. We tend to be planners, so I'm trying to get an idea about the point where breaking point is between renting and owning. I realize that there are many factors that come into play with how things actually work out. Because I don't know that much about the costs of owning, I thought I should mention the costs I'm anticipating and the type of flying I'm planning on doing and see what you all think.

The flying that I do currently is mostly local flying within about an hour of my home base (KCVO). If that was all I was planning on doing, I'd just stick with the flying club (Oregon State Flying Club). They have a 162 for $75/hr, 172M for $100/hr and a 172SP for $125 (with G1000). I think these rates are excellent. The only problem I have is that my wife really wants to do longer trips and vacations by plane, including plane camping. I'm required to pay for 2 hours per night I keep any plane, and that's where things get bad. Flying to Pacific City for the weekend is ~$150-400 just because of the mandatory hours. I would like to expand to flying to Seattle, Reno/Tahoe, Sunriver, NorCal, maybe Victoria BC. Because the primary use is longer distance flights with people, a 4-seater is a must and I'd like basic off-airport competency. This is my basic reason for specifying a 172, that and I just like Cessnas.

That said, from what I gather, the costs of ownership per month are:

Plane payments: $400 (30-40k plane over 10 years, which I would try to pay off much earlier)
Insurance: $100 (around $1200/yr)
Annual: $100 (again, assuming $1200 annual)
Parking: ??? (I have no idea. I'm not against the idea of parking outside, but I'd prefer a hanger)

This comes up (so far) to be around my current flying budget (I get to spend around $600 a month)
Now, I have to think about fuel. Assuming AvGas, though I'd think about the MoGas STC, at $5/gal and 8 gal/hr burn. That takes it to $40 /hr. So, If I fly the same 6 hours a month, that's an additional $240/mo. So, I'm clearly not there yet.

This is some naive math that I've come up with. What has been your experiences? I would love to come up with someone to partner with. My step dad is a pilot, and he's supposed to be moving in to town soon. That would change the math quite a bit. I'm assuming that insurance would change a little, but the payments and annual would be split effectively.

Welcome!

My advice is to keep renting, especially if you have to finance the purchase. The sad reality is that there is no way to crunch the numbers in your favor if that is of the slightest concern. This is after owning airplanes for 20 some odd years myself and family owned before that. In past years, we would bullshit ourselves into some sort of favorable balance sheet because the value went up a few points every year, but today it's just that. Now it's more like owning a classic car, do it because you want to, but don't let it ruin you financially.

Incidentally, my flying got much less expensive yesterday!

Emory Bored wrote:Have you ever stopped to consider just how futile it is to pay for rent and groceries every month? What an enormous waste of money! To make it worse, not only do you have nothing to show for it at month's end but then you have to start the whole process over again with another healthy chunk of hard earned dollars at the first of next month!

Ha! This made me LOL.

Thanks for the replies, everyone. This is exactly the info I'm after. Basically, we're looking at it like this:

Can we afford it in terms of not becoming homeless?
Essentially, yes, but only barely.

For the number of hours it takes to more or less break even, do we plan on flying that much?
Based on your responses, not yet, I don't think. But now I can sit down and have a conversation about how to fly 100 hours a year. That's a bit more than I would normally fly, I think. I'm probably going to almost hit that number this year, but that's because I just finished my PPL and I'm working on instrument, so that's a lot of flying without going anywhere. Perhaps after the IR, I'll be able to actually make plans to fly somewhere. Being stuck under a month of low fog really got me down. You know what I'm talking about Kitfox5, thanks for the hanger info at CVO, that's a huge help. The club has a powered hanger in the first row by the FBO. They're very very nice.

Again, I appreciate the responses everyone, they're very helpful. I'll keep renting for another few years, I think. If my step dad (or someone else I trust highly) wants to partner, however, I'll probably go for it.

I've done the math several times. I come up with about 200 hours/year as the break-even point. Some of your expenses are a bit low. You probably wont find "cheap" auto fuel available at most of your destinations. Is ethanol free auto fuel available where you live? Most of my annuals are under $1200, but I'd bet most people spend a bit more than that.
Remember, airplanes can bite you in the wallet really hard. A simple bad cylinder is going to cost you a couple grand! Not only are there the normal monthly/annual costs, there is the potential unforseen costs that can ground your aircraft. Unless you're able to have those $$$$$ available, you're better off renting.
An option to renting from a club/FBO, is to "rent" an airplane from somebody that isn't flying as much as they would like. Place an add on your airport's bulliten board.
RP

Having moved from renting to owning immediately after getting my private ticket in 1995, my advise is to definitely buy an airplane. Aviation is just a whole 'nother world once you own your own airplane. I rented between airplanes #1 & #2 and hated it.
FWIW I've owned my current airplane for not quite five years & flown it about 640 hours, which works out to about 130 hours a year. I'm kinda OCD so (unfortunately) I've kept track of all the costs of owning & operating my airplane. At this point, it's averaged out to $54 per hour and $7200 per year for a 150hp C150 taildragger. This is with full hull insurance on a $36K airplane, doing owner-assisted annuals, burning mogas, and my (condo) hangar costing me about $60 a month. Figure another $10-15 a hour deferred toward an overhaul/repair fund. Costs should be pretty similar for a light 4 seater like a C170 or 172.
You might sniff around & see if you can partner up with someone. If you can find a good partner, that can be a good way to ease into the shallow end of the airplane-ownership pool. The best way would be to find an older guy with his own airplane who doesn't fly much if at all but still wants to stay in the game. It's a win-win-- you get a break on ownership costs (as he does), plus you get a mentor who's been in the airplane-ownership game for a while. Who knows-- some fresh blood might even get the old guy interested in flying again.
Go for it, good luck, and keep us advised.

I got my license 11 years ago, and I've been renting ever since.

Because we rent, I don't fly as much as I would like. I cant fly anywhere I always wanted to (not allowed in rentals). I don't fly enough to justify the cost of the licence up front, or it's upkeep. So in that respect it was a waste of time.... and money? Only one way to fix that.

We always figured on 100 hours a year, as the break even point for a Piper 140 or C172, but I never really wanted a city plane either (YMMV). The point is I never expect to fly 100 hours a year, now.... but once I own... who knows.

We bought a bush plane to fix all the above problems

It will NEVER make pure financial sense, but [insert excuse here].

You only live once.

hotrod150 wrote: Aviation is just a whole 'nother world once you own your own airplane. I rented between airplanes #1 & #2 and hated it.

I second this, having owned and now renting. Clear sunny days staring at the sky while your buddies are out landing off airport can be a little painful.

Live in toy box to keep toys. No mortgage
Have toys in toy box. No mortgage.
Only reason to work is to pay taxes on toy box, toys in toy box and buy gas!
Drive 2004 diesel car, 40 mpg
Fly plane 100 mph/20gph
Worth it?
Damn Rights
Have horses to ride and drive?
Buy hay to have horse?
Make sense? NO!!
Worth it? YES!

GT

Emory Bored wrote:Once you do all those calculations you will almost certainly come to understand how fruitless and asinine this whole recreational flying enterprise is from a financial standpoint. It will NOT pencil out. But that's really not the point of it all.

x2

I love/hate my airplane because it's so incredibly cool but it's so scary expensive. That said, the value of owning to me is getting to do things that I will never do if I didn't have my own plane, like taking the family camping in the desert this weekend on the spur of the moment. I've got a long list of things like this where, yeah, it's possible to do it on the ground or by renting, but the hassle and expense means that I would very seldom choose to do it, or just not do it at all. So, for me, the tradeoff between renting vs. owning isn't apples;apples. The real question is how long I can afford to keep doing this. I bought my first plane when I was 28, single and thought that buying a run out 182 made more sense than buying a condo. If I didn't own an airplane now, I don't think I'd buy one, given my lack retirement funds. I may have to sell the plane, or take a government job.

CAVU