Here's some thoughts from my ownership experience:
1) If you think avgas is expensive, look at the price of a case of pull-ups these days!
2) When you think about how much that audio panel cost to replace, think about how expensive the glass door was that your son threw a rock through!
3) When you think about how mad you got when the rock went through the door, watch the videos of your boys the 1st time they flew the airplane!
4)When your wife asks how much money you burned in avgas this month, explain how much money that saved you on the bar tab!
5) When your buddys ask how you can afford an airplane, ask them how they can afford a $13,000 snowmobile or $30,000 aluminum boat.

It's just a hobby and a passion. Spend the money now and enjoy the times with your family now or save it all and let them enjoy it without you when you're dead. The only way to make flying sensible from a financial standpoint is to be paid to fly for someone else. Good luck!

All the posts are well taken. I appreciate the perspectives on the issue. I certainly agree with the sentiment about choosing what you spend your money on. I've never been cursed with a desire for a boat/RV/expensive truck, etc. I especially like the advice about finding someone who doesn't fly as much as they'd like picking up a partner. I'll ask at the FBO about posting something. For now, I feel comfortable renting, and I think I will for the next few years. Without a partner, anyway...

What kills me is that I know it's a down economy still, and it's a buyer's market. I don't think it's going to stay that way forever. At barnstormers, some of the better and affordable planes have already disappeared!

I bought an older 172 with a high number of hours on the engine for $25K (back when they were expensive, probably could get one for $15K-$20K now). For the last two years I've owned a hangar, but just before that these were my approximate monthly expenses, flying 50 hours per year (about 4 hours per month):

tie down: $30
insurance: $50 (1 mil liability plus 25K hull coverage of "ground not in motion")
fuel: $100 (auto fuel, 4 hrs per month @ 7 gph)
annual: $125 (that's the avg, started out with a few $2k and $3k annuals, as there was plenty to fix, but this came way down over time)

So, maybe $320 a month when I add in doing my own oil changes and the rare 10 gals of avgas when I was traveling.

$320 per month / 4 hours per month = $80/hour (recurring costs *after* cash purchase of plane)

Now that I've bought a hangar, I'm down to around $75/hour. (Property taxes on my hangar are $12 / month). Woo hoo! $5 an hour cheaper!

hpux735 wrote:All the posts are well taken. I appreciate the perspectives on the issue. I certainly agree with the sentiment about choosing what you spend your money on. I've never been cursed with a desire for a boat/RV/expensive truck, etc. I especially like the advice about finding someone who doesn't fly as much as they'd like picking up a partner. I'll ask at the FBO about posting something. For now, I feel comfortable renting, and I think I will for the next few years. Without a partner, anyway...

What kills me is that I know it's a down economy still, and it's a buyer's market. I don't think it's going to stay that way forever. At barnstormers, some of the better and affordable planes have already disappeared!

If you use Google Docs, here's a spreadsheet you can use to run some of your own numbers. It's defaulted to two partners.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... sp=sharing

Click "File" and "Make a Copy" to copy it to your own Google Docs account.

Let me know if you need any clarification.

Chris

sticknrudder wrote:

hpux735 wrote:All the posts are well taken. I appreciate the perspectives on the issue. I certainly agree with the sentiment about choosing what you spend your money on. I've never been cursed with a desire for a boat/RV/expensive truck, etc. I especially like the advice about finding someone who doesn't fly as much as they'd like picking up a partner. I'll ask at the FBO about posting something. For now, I feel comfortable renting, and I think I will for the next few years. Without a partner, anyway...

What kills me is that I know it's a down economy still, and it's a buyer's market. I don't think it's going to stay that way forever. At barnstormers, some of the better and affordable planes have already disappeared!

If you use Google Docs, here's a spreadsheet you can use to run some of your own numbers. It's defaulted to two partners.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... sp=sharing

Click "File" and "Make a Copy" to copy it to your own Google Docs account.

Let me know if you need any clarification.

Chris

Good work on that spreadsheet! That helps a lot!

I think all of the posts so far can be summarized by saying that you can't use economics as a ruler to determine whether to own or rent. My airplane (a low airframe hours hot rod P172D, CS prop, 180hp Lycoming) is paid for, as is the engine I had to have built after what was in it threw a rod after only 15 hours of ownership. If I don't count the purchase cost and the engine's cost, a year ago I calculated that I have to fly about 120 hours a year to break even with renting a comparable airplane, which takes into account everything else I've spent in the 9 years of ownership, except for the purchase price and engine, up until I had some avionics changes last year to the tune of $15,000. Sometimes the annuals have been ultra-clean, but more often something needs fixing, or I've decided to add something new. If I add in the purchase price, engine, and new avionics, my hourly costs skyrocket, and I frankly haven't calculated the additional hours I'd need to fly to break even.

But what is the point to recalculate? No matter what I do, I won't be flying enough hours to justify ownership from an economic standpoint. I have averaged 62 hours per year for 9 years of ownership, strictly recreational flying. Maybe once I retire (hopefully sooner than later), I'll fly more--or maybe less. But there is a certain joy in owning my own airplane, and like the Mastercard ads used to say, that's priceless.

Cary

CAVU wrote:That said, the value of owning to me is getting to do things that I will never do if I didn't have my own plane, like taking the family camping in the desert this weekend on the spur of the moment.

That's it. The thrill of flying, period, is still there, but it is not worth the price of admission unless the things I get to do with it make the difference. I don't really do much local flying. I use it to bridge some of the gaps between where I live (to work and make a home) with the rest of the world that I want to visit.

That being said, the folks that have 172's around me spend roughly the same on maintenance and expenses that I seem to on the 182. My operating expenses are quite a bit higher...fuel, engine & prop fund, etc. I get to go slightly faster in a straight line, which is sort of nice for most of the flying I do, and I get to climb up and over the rocks a lot faster and carry quite a bit more for the extra expense, which makes a lot of trips easier for me. If I lived down lower, I'd be happy with a lot less airplane.

If I rented, I'd almost break even, but I would not be allowed to do most of the flying I get to do with my own plane. I figured the break even point is around 100 hours or so in recent years. Somewhat less if you find a compatible ownership partner, although the savings might not be as much as you'd think.

One thing to consider is you could fly with the club airplanes for local fun, and for the longer cross country stuff you want to do, go to a local FBO that doesn't have the per night minimums. I know you can rent a 180 HP 172 with no minimums for $135 an hour wet within an hour's drive of Corvallis, and if you want to get even more cheap for the cross country flying (with just your wife and you're willing to travel light), a 150 class Cessna can be had for between $60-85 per hour (wet) within a couple hours drive from Corvallis.

Cub271 wrote:......a 150 class Cessna can be had for between $60-85 per hour (wet) within a couple hours drive from Corvallis.

A friend of mine was staying down in the Portland/Vancouver area last summer, and he told me he rented a C150 at Pearson for like $70/hour wet.

I owned my C170 for about 11-1/2 years, bought it in Sept 1997 & sold it in Jan 2009 after putting 1680 hours on it. I spent about $75K on it in that time, including majoring the engine, and then sold it for $4K more than I originally paid for it. That works out to $42 and change per hour flown-- including the OH. That's just about what I was paying to block-time rent a C150 when I got my ticket in 1995. You gotta figure in inflation etc to compare with today's prices, but a four-place airplane just doesn't get any more affordable than that.

Cub271 wrote:One thing to consider is you could fly with the club airplanes for local fun, and for the longer cross country stuff you want to do, go to a local FBO that doesn't have the per night minimums. I know you can rent a 180 HP 172 with no minimums for $135 an hour wet within an hour's drive of Corvallis, and if you want to get even more cheap for the cross country flying (with just your wife and you're willing to travel light), a 150 class Cessna can be had for between $60-85 per hour (wet) within a couple hours drive from Corvallis.

Would you PM me with those details?

Also, Cary, I agree with the sentiment. I'd like to get into a point where I own the plane and don't care as much about hourly costs anymore. I'm basically doing this analysis to understand how the economics work out. I'm aware that the economics "never really work", but in the sense that there is a break even point: there always is one.

I used the spreadsheet provided by Stick&rudder and modified it to match the way I think of things:
http://www.alternet.us.com/other/172-math.pdf

The take away message is that I like to think of things in terms of monthly costs. In this case, with one partner and financing, my monthly costs are in the $300 ball park. Then, the estimated hourly costs make between 7 and 8 hours a month (84-96 a year) break even. I think I would welcome the challenge to burn those hours.

An interesting artifact is that the fixed costs decay very quickly. So, if the hourly cost is low enough (not that you can do anything about that) the slope is very gradual. In essence, for a wide range of hours a year you're functionally close to breaking even.

I'm heartened by the results of this exploration. Certainly, if I get a raise I'll be thinking very carefully about making the leap.

Just remember that some surprises come with big $$$. When I bought LRB, with only 960 hours on the engine, I hardly thought I'd have to replace the engine to the tune of $23,000 only 15 hours later. I have no doubt that many folks in a similar situation would have had to park the airplane until the repairs could be paid for, or sell it at a great loss. I was fortunate that I could afford the cost, but it still made my airplane one of the most expensive older 172s out there. I've seen others buy an airplane thinking it was in pretty good shape, but then found hidden damage or unairworthy repairs needing to be repaired, which would cost more than the airplane would ever be worth. A good prebuy would disclose many of those, but sometimes even the most finicky IA won't find things that need repairing, because to find them would be way too costly.

If you have to ask, "Can I afford this?", you probably can't. But if you can ask, "Am I willing to put my discretionary money into an airplane?", then maybe you can.

Cary

hpux735 wrote:That said, from what I gather, the costs of ownership per month are:

Plane payments: $400 (30-40k plane over 10 years, which I would try to pay off much earlier)
Insurance: $100 (around $1200/yr)
Annual: $100 (again, assuming $1200 annual)
Parking: ??? (I have no idea. I'm not against the idea of parking outside, but I'd prefer a hanger)

I think your annual estimate is a bit low. Some years it may come in a bit less and that's gravy. Often there are squawks that need to be fixed, like the starter needs to be overhauled or the magnetos need to be overhauled or the generator light comes on for no apparent reason or the $#@! starter needs to be overhauled again or the crap replaced trying to track down why the %$#% generator light keeps coming on or just items that have worn out enough they're looking scary like the wiring harness or a cylindar goes bad or it goes bad at a remote airport.

And you forgot to include the bling cost. You gotta have bling: like upgrading to shoulder harnesses, or that fuel indicator, or the fancy large tire upgrade, or a pillow so you can reach the pedals, a GPS or tablet, a video camera so you can post for your friends on BCP, mounts for the camera...

Your insurance estimate seems a bit high, if not, it should go down as you accumulate hours. Mine is around $540 a year now (25K value).

Having a partner definitely is cheaper. I wouldn't recommend more than one partner though. I don't think the inconvenience is worth the cost savings beyond one. But there are also pitfalls with a partner.

Cary's were words of wisdom, which I would echo. I bought a low time 182 in the early 90's, the engine should have gone for another 1000 hours, but instead maybe made it a year, before a starter problem filled the engine with metal. I think that one cost in the low $20,000 range. I could stand it, but it didn't feel good. I would hate to suggest anyone buy an airplane if they are not prepared for such an event, better to be renting and flying, than owning a broken bird you can't afford to fix.

Steve

Don't buy any airplane with a (Lycoming) that has not been flown REGULARLY! My story, I bought a 0-540 with 90 hours but didn't fly for 5 years. I flew the shit out of it and changed oil every 25 hrs +- went 900hr and ate the cam. These motors can not sit for years with out being pickled.

If the price is right and mine was it might be worth the gamble.

G'Day

hpux735 wrote:That said, from what I gather, the costs of ownership per month are:

Plane payments: $400 (30-40k plane over 10 years, which I would try to pay off much earlier)
Insurance: $100 (around $1200/yr)
Annual: $100 (again, assuming $1200 annual)
Parking: ??? (I have no idea. I'm not against the idea of parking outside, but I'd prefer a hanger)

This comes up (so far) to be around my current flying budget (I get to spend around $600 a month)
Now, I have to think about fuel. Assuming AvGas, though I'd think about the MoGas STC, at $5/gal and 8 gal/hr burn. That takes it to $40 /hr. So, If I fly the same 6 hours a month, that's an additional $240/mo. So, I'm clearly not there yet.

I'm a Financial Advisor and I do this kind of evaluation for clients on a daily basis. Unfortunately, my blood sugar is low ( I'm going on pure coffee so far today and my stomach is empty) and my mind isn't 100%. I should say that I do this kind of evaluation for client's INVESTMENTS, risk tolerances, investment horizon etc. Doing so for airplane purchases doesn't work (and I'll come to this point in a bit.)

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Let's look at the IDEA of what you want to do. You've got access to low-cost club planes, but if you want to change your mission profile and do the occasional overnight, the costs appear to be come prohibitive. It SEEMS that you're pretty happy with the club, but the pull of longer flights with the family are starting to make you consider airplane ownership.

I would be willing to BET that if you think really hard about how often you'd actually take the overnights, you'll discover that the flat costs of continuing to rent the airplane (even when paying the occasional overnight fee) will/would still be substantially LESS than the monthly costs associated with owning an airplane.

That being said, I still think that you should pursue the EVENTUAL purchase of your own plane. But you have to go into it realistically.

What people are doing when they say "How many hours to break even?" is trying to rationalize the purchase of their own airplane. With very few exceptions, you ask anyone who owns/owned their airplane if it was a good investment, or if they ever "broke even" and the majority of them (as evidenced above) will haunt you with war stories of break downs, overhauls, ignorant partners, and eventually say "NO. It was NOT a good investment, I lost my arsss on it." But most will also say they were some of the best times of their lives.

So, instead of attempting to rationalize the purchase of an airplane by making spreadsheets and plans, I recommend that you instead accept the fact that chances are, owing your airplane is going to be a money-losing ADVENTURE (if you break even/make money then good for you and count your unusual blessings). ACCEPT that fact and then you can PREPARE for mitigating as much additional downside risk as possible - here's where your spreadsheets and cost analysis come into play. Maintenance accounts (call your broker/financial advisor and have them set up an investment account that you can deposit money into regularly), Bling/upgrade accounts (same thing), CONTINGENCY PLANS - what happens if 90 hours after you buy your airplane, you throw a rod or find metal flings on an oil change and are now faced with a $15K+ rebuild? Can you pay that out of pocket right then and there?

My last point is this - If you have to finance the entire purchase of an airplane, then just keep renting. If you can plan for your purchase by saving a set amount of money monthly equal to or greater than the overall monthly amount that ownership is going to cost you, till you can put down at LEAST 50% of the purchase price and can continue to put contingency money aside then purchase an airplane. Basically what I'm trying to say is that if you dont have the money to put at least $20K down on a $40K airplane, CHANCES ARE (there are no absolutes and this advice is worth exactly what you're paying for it) your financial position is not such that you should be buying an airplane.
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I dont know if any of that makes sense, my gut is gurgling and I was just kind of pounding away at the keys. CAVEAT: This message was in no way shape or form intended to give any person specific advice regarding investing, investments or financial planning. Investments and investment objectives vary from person to person and the preceding was for educational information only. Be sure to contact and consult your investment professional before considering any/all of the above (God I hate lawyers).

Windknot, great response, low blood sugar and all.

Living where there are no rentals available gives me little insight into the comparison. However, I will say that there is great freedom in the option of making a week or multi-week trip without strings attached. That's a lovely feeling.

I will also say that I think most people would look at you like you were crazy if you asked whether you should rent or own a car. But mostly we use cars a lot more. However, I suspect that if I rented an airplane, I would use the airplane a lot less.

But any analysis that looks at it from a money-saving standpoint is going to lose. An adventure-giving standpoint though, that is a likely win.

Wow, thanks Windknot! I totally understand what you're getting at. I appreciate your guidance. I've certainly cooled down on the idea of ownership. It's something I'd like to do eventually, but it's clear that planes are like boats, except they're holes in the air that you throw money into.

You know....I was thinking......another easy way to think about it is:

When you own, you're paying for that airplane all the time. When it's down for annuals (plus paying for the annuals), when it's down for mechanical issues (and you're paying for the breakdowns) and when it's raining, snowing, your significant other is sick, your kids are sick, when YOU'RE sick. You're also paying for the insurance, hangar rent/tie-down......ALL THE TIME.

If, on the other hand, you're part of a GOOD Flying club (Emphasis on GOOD) then you're paying for a decent airplane when you're flying it and maybe a little when you're camping underneath it, but you're not paying for it all the time.

Again.....I need/want to emphasize that I wholeheartedly encourage airplane ownership for anyone at the level at which you can afford it without it becoming a burden financially, and if you prefer to fly outside of the lifestyle in which you're accustomed to, then by all means, Flying Club/Rent away!!!

Windknot wrote:

hpux735 wrote:That said, from what I gather, the costs of ownership per month are:

Plane payments: $400 (30-40k plane over 10 years, which I would try to pay off much earlier)
Insurance: $100 (around $1200/yr)
Annual: $100 (again, assuming $1200 annual)
Parking: ??? (I have no idea. I'm not against the idea of parking outside, but I'd prefer a hanger)

This comes up (so far) to be around my current flying budget (I get to spend around $600 a month)
Now, I have to think about fuel. Assuming AvGas, though I'd think about the MoGas STC, at $5/gal and 8 gal/hr burn. That takes it to $40 /hr. So, If I fly the same 6 hours a month, that's an additional $240/mo. So, I'm clearly not there yet.

OK, $840/mo. for 6 hrs of flying your own plane comes to $140/hr.
I reckon (don't know) that you can rent a $30-40K airplane wet for $140.

So, if that works out to be a push, consider that rent (a 4 letter word) is $$ down the toilet, while financing your own is building some equity (a GoodThing) PLUS you can fly it when/where you want, and there is that lil rush whenever you think of or see YOUR airplane.
Ownership has value, but it costs $$. Just like any other toy in your stable.
Like Windknot said, if you can afford it, do it. If not, NOT.