Any thoughts? I discount the “low flying” finger-wagging - aircraft is an amphib flying over the flattest terrain on the planet. All I’ve seen is some YouTube video showing a lot of structural damage for some thing to inadvertently touch down while flying low. Wasn’t impressed with all the OMG chirping fishermen that wouldn’t get their feet wet to see if anyone was inside the floating wreckage.

Not sure what he did, other than the hot dogging that was eye - witnessed. Pretty easy to get too low over water/flat beach without a good visual reference. The last guys who died in one flew up a box canyon and ran out of room.

Looks like a cool little airplane. Way too spendy for me but it sure seems like it would be fun.

Karmutzen wrote:Any thoughts? I discount the “low flying” finger-wagging - aircraft is an amphib flying over the flattest terrain on the planet. All I’ve seen is some YouTube video showing a lot of structural damage for some thing to inadvertently touch down while flying low. Wasn’t impressed with all the OMG chirping fishermen that wouldn’t get their feet wet to see if anyone was inside the floating wreckage.

Based on the video, he wasn’t just flying low. In fact he was zooming up, then diving down low. In particular over water that can be challenging. Add to that a low time pilot, with minimal time in type......

“Low level” involves a hell of a lot more than just chugging along at fifty feet in a straight line.....as he apparently discovered.

Unfortunate in any case. Just retire at age 40, set for life, and this happens. Doesn’t get much worse.

Our prayers go out to his family.

MTV

Seems like a pretty well-engineered and tested aircraft. With zero evidence to support my theory, I'm going with classic pilot error for what appeared to be a low-timer flippantly maneuvering at low level. Loss of orientation, accelerated stall, take your pick. Speculation is worth about what we're paid to give it, but yeah...

Very, very sad for all involved.

Prayers for sure.

Always fly with slightly up elevator trim when flying low. That way if you get distracted or relax control of the stick the airplane climbs instead of descends. No idea if this had anything to do with it but easier to get smacked by the surface if neutral or down elevator trim.

I suspect that the Icon is a fun airplane, and it's a lot different flying something "fun" vs. what he'd been flying most of his relatively short flying career. He'd obtained his IR and multi, so most of his training was in a somewhat regimented environment, where precision is the byword. In contrast, to get his Sport SES endorsement, for a private pilot that's mostly a fun event, with some precision thrown in for the landings and take offs. I remember my own SES training 3 1/2 years ago as 95% pure fun.

On his own, the whole purpose was to have fun. It's too easy, when you're having fun in an airplane and have relatively limited experience, to get caught up in the moment. Even an airplane that is designed to be spin resistant still responds to the laws of aerodynamics, so there are those limits that can be exceeded if the pilot isn't on top of things. At low level, there isn't any time to recover from exceeding those limits. That's my guess at what happened.

And it is sad--RIP "Doc", and prayers for his family.

Cary

The company recently released a 'recommendation' letter which I think was added to the purchase agreement of acceptable operations for owners. The new document seemed to clearly state that flight below 500 feet agl was to be avoided ("prohibited" is probably a bit strong) except for takeoff and landing. Even a brief look at the company's marketing materials vs the new document highlights more than one contradicting video on Youtube which appear to be Icon marketing products. It seems like the company has marketed the aircraft with the same "go any where, do anything" adrenaline junkie images as jet skis, 4wd pickups, and BMW sport cars. I wonder if those contradictory messages will bite 'em?

Came across this:

http://www.tmz.com/2017/11/08/roy-halladay-plane-crash-video-witnesses-showboating/

FWIW: TMZ is not exactly what you would call reputable. They're pretty much the sports equivalent of the national enquirer.

Halladay may very well have been taking chances but I think i'll wait for what the NTSB has to say.

http://cdn.iconaircraft.com/v2/own-a5/a ... y_v9sa.pdf

" (1) After an accident, data will be provided to the NTSB (or comparable foreign governmental entity with jurisdiction to investigate an incident or accident involving aircraft) following its request; "

It will be interesting if the flight recorder data will be used in the investigation and if it's data will be revealed in the final report.
-- vs Pilot failed to maintain a safe distance from the earth.

Hi Guys,

As this is the topic of many hanger discussions, this will help to dispel some misinformation. It may also give some preliminary information.

https://youtu.be/A1AjJ19QqbE

Hawk wrote:Hi Guys,

As this is the topic of many hanger discussions, this will help to dispel some misinformation. It may also give some preliminary information.

https://youtu.be/A1AjJ19QqbE

Interesting video. Why do you suppose Brown decided to do it? He does a nice job of pulling together several tidbits of information that make a convincing case that the Company's marketing and business model were the root cause of the accident. Gotta believe there may be some credibility to the case, given that 12% (if one post I've seen is correct that there were 25 registered aircraft) to 14% (if Brown's statement of 22 registered aircraft) of the currently registered Icon5 aircraft are now junk. At that rate (if unabated) the current fleet won't have a long history.

Wonder if he got caught in the push throttle to make nose go down and back off throttle to make the nose go up deal. All those pushers require some reverse thinking and training.

PapernScissors wrote:

Hawk wrote:Hi Guys,

As this is the topic of many hanger discussions, this will help to dispel some misinformation. It may also give some preliminary information.

https://youtu.be/A1AjJ19QqbE

Interesting video. Why do you suppose Brown decided to do it? He does a nice job of pulling together several tidbits of information that make a convincing case that the Company's marketing and business model were the root cause of the accident. Gotta believe there may be some credibility to the case, given that 12% (if one post I've seen is correct that there were 25 registered aircraft) to 14% (if Brown's statement of 22 registered aircraft) of the currently registered Icon5 aircraft are now junk. At that rate (if unabated) the current fleet won't have a long history.

Same guy did a really interesting series of videos detailing this summer's emergency rebuilding of the Oroville Dam spillway with aerial shots from his Luscombe.

Mr. Halladay had a life-long passion for aviation, and earned his license in high school. His father was a commercial pilot. He is missed by many.

Here is a recent interview by one of his former coaches.

http://www.cpr.org/news/story/rememberi ... ague-great

The company demonstrates the design's benign stall behavior and reluctance to spin in a few videos available at their website. Angle of attack flying is emphasized but in the early instrument panels at least a sensitive altimeter and vertical speed indicator are visibly absent directly in front of the left seat...they may be available via the center mounted GPS display.

Just because the stall behavior is benign and power off descents (noted in the videos) may be survivable without the chute deployed, doesn't mean abrupt earth or water contact will be pleasant and incur only minimal damage. That's sales talk not flight training.

I'd want to explore the rate of sink in all configurations, airspeeds, AOA, and power modes before chasing that end of the landing envelope.

Edit: Maybe a stall and sink are ok...at least it's something to be avoided rather than assumed will not happen or end badly.

A prior pilot had a reportedly hard water landing that breached the hull so under certain circumstances it can happen:

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2017/04/i ... -2017.html

Gary

Barnstormer wrote:Always fly with slightly up elevator trim when flying low. That way if you get distracted or relax control of the stick the airplane climbs instead of descends. No idea if this had anything to do with it but easier to get smacked by the surface if neutral or down elevator trim.

That's great advice—thanks! As a non-backcountry pilot (eavesdropping), my idea of "low" is 500 ft along the lower St Lawrence rather than 5 ft zooming over a bay, but I'd never thought of the advantage of a bit of up-trim in either situation, the same way I already use a bit of down-trim on climbout so that the default (if I get distracted) isn't a departure stall.

A fellow that sold a book at Oshkosh told me a story. His book came with a CD full of photos of the north. I believe he was from Minnesota so you may have heard of him or know the story.

He was flying down the MacKenzie River, NWT in a J3 on floats, hands off, perfectly trimmed, 200' off the surface. He dropped his chart, and reached for it, carefully so as not to bump the stick. When he sat up with the map in his hand he was inches from digging his floats into the water at cruise speed. He's certain he would have crashed and inverted had he looked up a moment later. He thinks the weight shift alone caused him to descend.

Moral of the story: trim slightly pitch up and hold the stick forward when flying low. Relax for a moment otherwise and you may hit the surface.

He told me his story because I told him I dreamed of flying all the major rivers in North America from their headwaters to the sea. I won't forget when I get around to it.

Ask yourself this... If he was flying at 500 to 1,000' and there was nothing wrong with the airplane, would this have happened?

Could this have been prevented? If yes, how?



Kurt

Okay, I spent much of my flying career below 500 feet agl. I DO NOT trim to anything but neutral at those heights any more than I would in the IFR environment at 10,000 feet.

Down low, there are thousands of distractions. Flying the airplane has to be your number one priority. Trim nose up, in case? Ever perform an inadvertent stall at 500 feet? Might be the end of a nice day......or life.

Trim the airplane and FLY IT when you’re low. It takes a while to appreciate the traps that exist at low level, but trust me...they are there. Distraction is high on that list.

This gent was doing zoom climbs, followed by high rate descents to very near the surface. The surface of water can be hard to judge distance/height.

From the NTSB prelim, it sounds like he was diving, got close, pulled hard, accelerated stalled, and smacked the water in a near flat attitude. That Hull was destroyed. Had to have been a hard hit. Anything else would have dissipated energy better.

Godspeed.

MTV