I missed MTVs very important post on low level flying. I too Never trim for anything but neutral/cruise when low. 99.9% of your situational awareness is outside. You don't have time or energy to mess with fighting trim.

Halladay was still breathing after the accident, perhaps while people stood on the deck of nearby boats shooting videos after witnessing the crash. No one jumped in the water to help, to see if the pilot was still alive. The autopsy said contributing to Halladay’s death in addition to the blunt head and chest trauma was “foamy fluid in the larynx and airways,” meaning a contributing cause of the MLB star’s death was drowning.

$hit%ucks and thier cellphones let this guy die while they took pics to post on the internet.

With that said this guy was a $ouche. It would have been hard for me with my 26 years in medicine to think of a better way to drug a person to facilitate crashing.

Icon and GA are innocent victims of this 'Iconic sports 'hero'...

Mountain Doctor wrote:Halladay was still breathing after the accident, perhaps while people stood on the deck of nearby boats shooting videos after witnessing the crash. No one jumped in the water to help, to see if the pilot was still alive. The autopsy said contributing to Halladay’s death in addition to the blunt head and chest trauma was “foamy fluid in the larynx and airways,” meaning a contributing cause of the MLB star’s death was drowning.

$hit%ucks and thier cellphones let this guy die while they took pics to post on the internet.

With that said this guy was a $ouche. It would have been hard for me with my 26 years in medicine to think of a better way to drug a person to facilitate crashing.

Icon and GA are innocent victims of this 'Iconic sports 'hero'...

Really? I think that statement is a bit overblown. It's not like he was clinging to a sinking airplane yelling for help...he had a traumatic crash that he wasn't going to survive whether his head was above or below water.

I get your point about misplaced values in our society, but...

It's not reasonable to assume that anyone witnessing the crash had any of the skills, ability or equipment to offer assistance, and trying to do so regardless, because "it's the right thing to do", just makes for more victims.

There's zero point in someone else getting injured or killed trying to help if they don't have the means to do so safely. Bystanders have zero responsibility to endanger themselves because someone else made a long series of poor decisions.

My take after 16 years of being a first responder. Everyone is entitled to make their own decision, of course.

Agree with Hammer. Not sure I could have found a human anywhere in that floating wreckage. High risk I would have become tangled and died trying.

I've also read that the drugs in his system could easily have been taken by prescription, a suitable period of time could have elapsed since the dose, and still have these results. I won't copy and paste, and the link is on a competing site, but was posted by a doctor whose previous posts have earned my respect.

His flying decisions were poor. That's all I'll say against him.

The late former Flying Tiger Dallas Clinger of Alpine Wyoming, who I had the good fortune to know, lost his Hyperlight bi-plane ultralight to a friend (another very experienced long time aviator, like Dallas) who took it up one day, and crashed it. Some combination of meds of some sort were deemed the cause as I recall, nothing illicit or anything, or even obvious, something somewhat benign but just enough to screw up the old hand/eye coordination.

Hammer,

When you say everyone should make their own decisions, I assume you are talking about non trained bystanders. The Good Samaritan law works both ways, at least in New Mexico. Trained bystanders are expected to take charge and do what can safely be done.

I'm not as concerned with legality as with humanity. I also expect adults to take charge and do what can safely be done when children are being dangerous or just stupid. A firm teacher voice "NO!," can do wonders.

Jim

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contactflying wrote:Hammer,

When you say everyone should make their own decisions, I assume you are talking about non trained bystanders. The Good Samaritan law works both ways, at least in New Mexico. Trained bystanders are expected to take charge and do what can safely be done.

I'm not as concerned with legality as with humanity. I also expect adults to take charge and do what can safely be done when children are being dangerous or just stupid. A firm teacher voice "NO!," can do wonders.

Jim

And "what safely can be done" is the key there.

I have extensive training in swift water rescue, underwater recovery, and vehicle extraction. The list of things I'd require before trying to extricate a person from a aircraft crash into water is fantastically beyond what anyone other than a professional water rescue crew could possibly have on hand.

Had I been there on a boat drinking beer when Halladay's airplane crashed, I'd have tried to alert appropriate first responders, and I'd have tried to get my boat up close to the crash to see if there was something I could do from the deck, but I sure as hell wouldn't have gotten in the water. I know better. The ignorant jackass who wrote "...nobody jumped in the water to help..." doesn't. He or she doesn't have a clue what difficulties an in-water vehicle extraction entails, or the dangers it presents.

The difference between a hero and a rescue technician is training, and results. Heroes die needless deaths and/or make matters worse with their good intentions. Rescue technicians do what they can, when they can, and live to do so again tomorrow, and the next day, and the next, because they don't sacrifice themselves trying to do what can't be done.

It's not glamorous or ready for TV, but very little of actual value ever is.

Oh...a lot more children need to hear the N word spoken with authority. Kudos!

I hear you, Hamer. I missed the Coast Guard training my NMARNG medevac unit got at San Diego because I was teaching. They had a great time and learned a lot. Not a lot of water rescue in NM, but great training anyway.

There may indeed have been nothing that bystanders could have done to rescue the pilot in this case.

But, Hammer’s argument represents a classic example of our current “Nanny state” attitude held by many in our society today: “Don’t do anything till first responders arrive.”

I totally agree that anyone and everyone jumping into the water in an attempt to rescue the pilot could indeed result in additional loss of life. But I don’t think that was what Mountain Doctor was referring to.

As Hammer noted, getting a boat close, and making at least an effort to assist should have been an automatic reaction, but as MD pointed out, apparently nobody who witnessed the crash made even that minimal effort.

I would also point out that this was not a “swift water” incident. In fact, it was quite benign water conditions....warm water, warm air, calm winds. Still, if you don’t know what you’re doing, there is the possibility to get in trouble ANY time one gets in the water. And, of course, if alcohol were involved......

But to argue, as Hammer does, that nobody but trained responders should attempt a rescue is ludicrous, in my opinion.

The news is full of instances where “untrained” individuals effected rescues before trained first responders arrived at a scene.

None of us were there, of course, but the arrival of first responders in such a place probably took some time.

I hope that if I’m ever so unfortunate as to be in such a situation, that someone will at least make an effort to help.

And, perhaps someone did in this case, but was not captured on all the cell phones.

MTV

mtv wrote:There may indeed have been nothing that bystanders could have done to rescue the pilot in this case.

But, Hammer’s argument represents a classic example of our current “Nanny state” attitude held by many in our society today: “Don’t do anything till first responders arrive.”

I totally agree that anyone and everyone jumping into the water in an attempt to rescue the pilot could indeed result in additional loss of life. But I don’t think that was what Mountain Doctor was referring to.

As Hammer noted, getting a boat close, and making at least an effort to assist should have been an automatic reaction, but as MD pointed out, apparently nobody who witnessed the crash made even that minimal effort.

I would also point out that this was not a “swift water” incident. In fact, it was quite benign water conditions....warm water, warm air, calm winds. Still, if you don’t know what you’re doing, there is the possibility to get in trouble ANY time one gets in the water. And, of course, if alcohol were involved......

But to argue, as Hammer does, that nobody but trained responders should attempt a rescue is ludicrous, in my opinion.

The news is full of instances where “untrained” individuals effected rescues before trained first responders arrived at a scene.

None of us were there, of course, but the arrival of first responders in such a place probably took some time.

I hope that if I’m ever so unfortunate as to be in such a situation, that someone will at least make an effort to help.

And, perhaps someone did in this case, but was not captured on all the cell phones.

MTV

No Mike, it actually doesn't.

I was simply explaining that even a person with the training, experience and ability to facilitate a rescue under those circumstances is essentially powerless to do anything productive, much less safely, without the right PPE and tools, and to dive in anyway just to say you "made an effort to help" is fantastically stupid.

The quickest way to get the needed resources to the scene is to call first responders, and the best way to facilitate them being able to do something productive for Mr. Halladay is to not become another victim needing rescue before they arrive. Terribly unglamorous, but prudent none the less.

If you or anyone else want's to dive in wearing board shorts and a teeshirt and swim out to what is undoubtably a hazmat scene to help, I'll happily hold your wallet and car keys for you. I'll even note the time of entry into the water and last utterances, in case they are of official interest later.

This isn't a school bus full of children in the water, it's a adult who is both 100% responsible for the predicament they're in, and very much doomed from the time of impact. Criticizing the people who witnessed his fatal event for not "jumping in the water to help" (author's words, not MD's) is just ignorant...IMO.

I also respectfully disagree (in part) with your assessment of our "nanny state". I think most people go to great measures to help when they can, and if they don't it's probably because they know better, or they've been burned for trying to help in the past. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but nobody has ever accused me of being a social optimist.

Hammer, I didn’t say anything about “jumping in the water wearing Board shorts and a tee shirt”. There may have been ways to assist without doing so.

But, there have been many thousands of people saved by bystanders in rescue situations when waiting for first responders would have probably or surely resulted in death.

But many in today’s society would prefer to stand by with cell phone camera in hopes they’ll have a popular You Tube video.....

Don’t get me wrong, I’m a big fan of first response. I guess I just worked too long in country where first response was two to three hours away on a good day.......and, that was part of my job as well.

MTV

I would like to think that most folks would try to help in some fashion. I know I would have, as would most people I associate with including the lions share of folks here. Not sure to what extent, hope I never have to find out.

Sad case, feel bad for the family. Dude must have had some personal issues, as seem to go hand in hand with fame and fortune. I can't even imagine (don't want to) what his family and friends are going through.

Re-reading my post I see that I was a bit angry after reading the article but I still think I am right in principle.

My background is I was an EMT and then a paramedic for many years. Before that I was a lifeguard. This is what I did to help pay for college and medical school.

NO WAY I could have lived with myself if all I did was take pictures to post on Facebook. They did not know that he was not drowning right in front of them and they let him die.

It's not rocket science. Jump in the water and look. See if the canopy is open or can be opened. Pull the person out and get them to the surface. Ease the victim into a boat and evaluate.

He may have been EASY to get to. They never looked. Cowards.

Granted he was probably doomed, but they didn't know that and did NOTHING!

This is not Biblically sound thinking (self centered rather than other centered) or what I would consider to be basic human decency.

I'd like to think that I'm among those who would try to help. The only event I can recall that bares any similarity to this one happened years ago on one of Wyoming's lakes. We were boating, and we observed a small cabin-type sailboat turn turtle in a sudden gust of wind. My friend driving the boat headed us there immediately. As we arrived, two adults came to the surface, the woman screaming "my baby is still in there!" My lifeguard training kicked in, and I dove in, got into the cabin, and pulled out the kid--not really a baby, probably about 4 years old. He was fine. We brought all of them to shore, then went back and pulled the upside down boat in. I don't recall folding the mast on it--I've "rescued" other inverted sailboats and folded the masts, just don't remember this one in particular.

By the time all that was done, I was chilled to the bone. It took a hot shower and several hours before I stopped shivering. I didn't feel much like a hero, although had I not gone in, the kid would have been in real trouble. Neither of the sailboaters were doing all that much to rescue him, but maybe they would have if we hadn't arrived when we did.

I guess I don't understand the desire to video everything these days, especially in lieu of doing anything productive to help.

Cary

Well done Cary. Proud to know you.

The photos I saw suggest the airplane was pretty broken up with shards and fragments...any water entry looked pretty hazardous.

So...as a swiftwater rescuer and a lifeguard, I would not have been in that water. Sorry if that offends some of you.

I might have tried to get a line on the wreckage to see if it could be turned over in some fashion.

We are citizens, or long term residents, of a contract society but all genetically come from status society where honor is more important than life itself. So our feelings about others can run deep. Christians are obligated both ways. Congressional Medal of Honor winners are generally of lower rank and under no contract. Being our brother's keeper is a very individual and personal thing.

mtv wrote:Hammer, I didn’t say anything about “jumping in the water wearing Board shorts and a tee shirt”. There may have been ways to assist without doing so.

But, there have been many thousands of people saved by bystanders in rescue situations when waiting for first responders would have probably or surely resulted in death.

But many in today’s society would prefer to stand by with cell phone camera in hopes they’ll have a popular You Tube video.....

Don’t get me wrong, I’m a big fan of first response. I guess I just worked too long in country where first response was two to three hours away on a good day.......and, that was part of my job as well.

MTV

You might be right...I guess I just don't know them. I don't watch anything on utube unless I'm trying to learn something mechanical, haven't watched TV for going on 30 years, don't access any news outlet in any medium, and I never owned a phone that was also a camera, so I'm probably out of the loop of what main-stream society is doing.

I know that the people I associate with, whether they're friends or just folks I say hi to at the airport or on the road, would help in any way they could...and then leave before anyone could get around to acknowledging or thanking them.

That, to me, is pretty normal behavior. And I'm no Pollyanna...I actually look forward to the next flu pandemic because I think there's about 6.6 billion too many people on the rock...that's only partly in jest.

Hammer wrote:....I know better. The ignorant jackass who wrote "...nobody jumped in the water to help..." doesn't. ......

Hammer, you might be 100% correct but you're sadly lacking in tact.
I believe in calling a spade a spade, but I try not to be an asshole when I do it.