Backcountry Pilot • ID Div of Aero: New Big Brother Watching your YouTube Videos

ID Div of Aero: New Big Brother Watching your YouTube Videos

A general forum for anything related to flying the backcountry. Please check first if your new topic fits better into a more specific forum before posting.
85 postsPage 4 of 51, 2, 3, 4, 5

Re: ID Div of Aero: New Big Brother Watching your YouTube Vi

ExperimentalAviator wrote:
PapernScissors wrote:My take? "That [rich doctor/developer/attorney/ordinary Joe/float plane pilotguy] really "screwed the pooch" for all other back country pilots by his thoughtless behavior. :( :(


I don't think what the pilot did was a thoughtless behavior, at the time float planes were allowed to land on the lake (planes could land on the lake at the time, right?) that the Sierra Club guy was at and he didn't like it, so he used his influence to change it to what he wanted. Did he not know planes could land on the lake? thus getting mad when the plane landed on the lake, maybe...

In my opinion the Sierra Club guy is the one coming off as the ass not the float pilot.



I think you make a really good point. I'd like to believe it was persuasive. It's got a lot in common with those who argued Meigs should be retained as an airport, that Blaine Muni (in Washington State) was there long before the subdivisions, that Evergreen Airport predated 'all that development' at Vancouver, WA, and that KSMO was there almost 100 years ago... long before the city grew up around it. Of those formerly important airports, only KSMO remains on life support. Unfortunately, doesn't matter whether you or I think the float pilot was inconsiderate and a jerk. It's this Sierra Club guy and lots of his buddies who agreed it was the "rich doctor" in the float plane who was "intruding into the natural quiet" with his lead smoke belching 'rich guy' airplane. It helps to remind ourselves that Wilderness laws (BIG W) and especially aviation exceptions to these laws are NOT carved in God Given Stone Tablets. Only 51 votes in the US Senate + 218 members of the US House and one guy in the Whitehouse can change the rules. How many back country pilots are likely to go to bat if the four airstrips generate enough complaints to rile up the Wilderness Society, Mountaineers, Sierra Club, etc.? The US doesn't have very many pilots. Backcountry pilots are just a tiny fraction of that tiny fraction. In the aggregate all US pilots are less than .03% of the US population. The US has a whole lot more environmentalists who would love to lock up the back country. We need to pick our battles - carefully. This one doesn't look like a good place to draw a line in the sad. I stick with my words... That pilot (and others who needlessly generated complaints) "screwed the pooch" for the rest of us.
PapernScissors offline
Posts: 419
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:49 pm
Location: Spokane
Aircraft: Cessna 172

Re: ID Div of Aero: New Big Brother Watching your YouTube Vi

Mauleguy wrote:
There is no doubt what the Sectional says. Here is where it gets interesting. I called the Hillsboro FSDO and talk to a person in the office and asked him if I was breaking any regulations landing on Forest Service land, He said "yes" right away and that I could not do that. I asked him for specific regulations that showed that in black and white. His answer was he would have to get back to me on that. About an hour later he called me back and said that as far as the FAA was concerned there was no law broken. That my fight was with the agency that oversaw the land and that if it was public land I would have to follow what was written. I asked if he would send me an email with what he just told me and he did. I then sent it to the Forest Service guy that was threatening me with a ticket and court date along with the full CFR's that applied to me. I never heard back from the Forest Service, maybe they are still building a case after 8 years I doubt it. I continue to land where I want on Forest Service lands and no one is going to take that from me without a fight as long as the wording in the CFR's is not changed. These are Public Lands for everyone. In most cases I never see another sole.

Mauleguy


I agree that there is nothing in the FARs that would prohibit landing on a national forest, national park, national wildlife refuge. Nor is there anything in the FARs about flying low over coastal waters and disturbing sea birds or harassing whales. Unfortunately, the FSDO was the wrong place to go to ask those questions.

The Federal land management agencies also have regulations that control what can be done on the lands that Congress and previous Presidents set aside. In the laws passed by Congress and signed by the President is direction to the Secretaries of Agriculture, Commerce, and the Interior to create necessary regulations (which they have done...whether you or I like 'em or not is irrelevant since the Law of the US created by Congress and approved by the President said "DO IT!") In addition, the National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS) manages National Marine Reserves in the coastal waters, plus NMFS has authority over quite a bit of the airspace above those waters. Bust the airspace and risk a big fine, and maybe some time. Land on national forests etc. and likewise risk a fine and confiscation of your aircraft. You need to go to the USFS, NPS, NWLS headquarters and ask them about landing on dry dirt or the waters. If this seems unfair (maybe it is, maybe it isn't) round up enough people to pressure Congress to pass new legislation, and persuade whoever is the President when all this is done to sign the legislation into law.
PapernScissors offline
Posts: 419
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:49 pm
Location: Spokane
Aircraft: Cessna 172

Re: ID Div of Aero: New Big Brother Watching your YouTube Vi

PapernScissors sounds like your the kind of person I really don't like. The CFR's list aircraft as exempt, I am not going to go out of my way to ask the Forest Service if it is legal or not because they are just going to tell me and you (when I say you I don't mean PapernScissors because he sounds like one of them) that you need a special use permit. I think I will find out the way I did last time when they take a picture of me with one of their publicly funded helicopters. I disturb no one where I go and they waste dollars flying around trying to take a picture of me in National Forest. This is not Wilderness, National Park. This is just miles and miles of National Forest.

Mauleguy
Mauleguy offline
User avatar
Posts: 217
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:43 pm
Location: Washington

ID Div of Aero: New Big Brother Watching your YouTube Videos

PapernScissors wrote:
How many back country pilots are likely to go to bat if the four airstrips generate enough complaints to rile up the Wilderness Society, Mountaineers, Sierra Club, etc.? The US doesn't have very many pilots. Backcountry pilots are just a tiny fraction of that tiny fraction. In the aggregate all US pilots are less than .03% of the US population. The US has a whole lot more environmentalists who would love to lock up the back country.


Unfortunately this is one of our Achilles heels. I wonder if the environmentalists ever stop to consider that, while I'm sitting next to the Middle Fork of the Salmon and they come cruising by on their raft communing with nature, that maybe they are interrupting my experience with nature. Not that it does, but the point is, it's all about them and their agenda. With them, there is no middle ground.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Grassstrippilot offline
Knowledge Base Author
User avatar
Posts: 3536
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 6:17 am
Location: Syracuse, UT
FindMeSpot URL: https://share.garmin.com/WolfAdventures
Aircraft: Cessna 205

Re: ID Div of Aero: New Big Brother Watching your YouTube Vi

PapernScissors wrote: Nor is there anything in the FARs about flying low over coastal waters and disturbing sea birds or harassing whales.

Is this a joke? Harassing Whales???
SixTwoLeemer offline
User avatar
Posts: 1285
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 10:53 am
Location: Wasatch Front
Altitude is Time…. Airspeed is Life!

Re: ID Div of Aero: New Big Brother Watching your YouTube Vi

Lash out at me if you will. I'm still on your side. That doesn't mean you shouldn't think about what you are doing and how it is perceived - and more importantly how it affects other people. I'm in no way responsible for this little shitstorm. Save this anger for the person that posted your letter to the world. That was not me.

wyomingiswindy wrote:
It looks like Greg took down his entire web site. I think the issue with the Big Creek 4 have been pretty well talked about by the RAF and the IAA - and the request was to keep our access low key as far as I recall. The issues are all around those 4, exact specific strips - and no others. That video is very hold (8-9 years if I recall correctly) - I'm not sure why he decided to publish it again a few months ago. I love his videos and the OBP - they are awesome - but to put out a specific video on just these 4 most sensitive sites - which all of the flying political orgs have asked us to refrain from doing seems to be a bit confrontational.

The thing about commercial filming though - I'm starting to see a point there. He didn't post it on youtube or vimeo as his own personal vacation video. He posted it under his company, Ohio bush Planes - and it's pretty clear from his web site that he's "holding out" for commercial videography, marketing and advertising work. Pimping - in his own words. Now I hope he gets work and I love the videos - but he has to navigate the legal waters correctly - this is not some guy recording his vacation. Youtube pays for viral videos (he'll make tens of cents for his 1700 views).

http://ohiobushplanes.com/

"MULTIMEDIA. We love multimedia! Greg has been slinging video clips since the mid 90s. Marketing and Advertising is what gets done around here. If you've got a product that needs pimped or a story to tell, hire this pilot for the job."

You can't hide on the internet - Cached copy of his site here:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=us

Still, that video doesn't get enough traffic to warrant a cease and desist letter. The status quo seems to be tenuous at best. We'd all enjoy a visit to these spots every now and again, I think we should take the advice of those close to the situation and keep our footprints on the down low.

Here's an older thread on this subject:
https://backcountrypilot.org/forum/big-creek-4-10105

And this on AOPA:
https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all ... -spotlight


Well aren't we the pot calling the kettle black? Let’s keep everything low key yet you and a dozen other Chatty Cathies have bumped up an otherwise dormant video's popularity quite a bit.  

And you didn’t post just once about it. You and the brain-trust are figuring it out one post at a time. Have you all gone from student pilot to expert status so quickly that you can’t realize you are referencing AOPA articles that were written 3 years AFTER I made the video that has ruined your lives?

And why the heck are you keeping tabs on me and my actions and my web history?  It's a little disturbing, and part of the reason I didn't want that letter getting posted on the web... 

Do you know I’m currently the only person not buying selling and printing OBP logos and “company” hats and mugs despite creating that silly logo and slapping it on a video for shits and giggles 9 years ago? PS Would you like me to send you a PDF so you can put it on your TrapperKeeper[emoji768], or for our team jersey, since we are on the same side. Are you quarterback, or coach? Or maybe you’re on the sideline with a microphone?

I asked a former USFS local Idaho fellow for advice and or help. I go to bed. My letter is posted and although that was not my intent, a resurgence of the Big Creek video gets overnight hate/love. I wake up to some pilot calling one of my best friends a camel-jockey or a Muslim-queer or something and biblical quotes are countered and ACLU links are slung, constitutional rights demanded, and rules and regs from Smokey the Bear ultimately laying down the law.

So, knowing a thousand Facebook cowboys, web monkeys and government workers were headed to ohiobushplanes.com next, I threw up literally the first image that caught my eye.  A subdued American flag at the OBP corn-crib HQ.  Patriotism under duress. I scaled that baby down to 980 pixels, googled some HTML and uploaded those suckers. Does that make me a dark, scandalous twat trying to hide from the all-knowing SoyAnarchisto?

We don't need a waybackmachine historian here at OBP, but since you're such a smart tech guy maybe you'd notice that most of the links you dug up didn't go anywhere.  They were anchor tags.  Why? Because I never finished the site.  Because I don't care.  Because the previous "company" web site got hacked last summer and I wiped it out completely without even backing it up.  I didn't even bother hooking the email up for six months.  Why?  Because Ohio Bush Planes, this triumphant, lucrative, commercial enterprise is a pain in my ass.

When I was actively churning out videos (and I made over 300) the art project slowly but surely became un-fun, I don’t even want to pimp anyone’s story anymore…People be judging what's cool or not cool or what's disrespectful.  --So-n-so wants my source files so he can make a channel on YouTube for his illiterate friends, or BillyBob thinks he looks narcissistic so take that video down, or Polly is on disability and can't be seen juggling chainsaws, or some pipeline company is gonna sue because the manager is smoking on the job, or that plane's wingtip was too close to that mountain, or HEY, some privileged white boys will not get to fly into the back country because I did a summersault in a meadow eight years ago back when summersaults were still legal and even encouraged throughout the republic...Backcountry fisting bumps must be your thing bro, so leave me out of that at least. When I party in the backcountry, I party alone.

I could take the easy way out and just take down this video. I have done that countless other times. I honestly don't give a squirt of piss about the video. I can barely even sit through one of my own videos without cringing, let alone yours. I probably will take it down.

BUT

There is much more to this particular story than you realize, and I'd tell you, but apparently although you are on my side, and you enjoy watching my videos, you can't be trusted with information. You might try to analyze it out loud and throw me under the bus in the process.  Or maybe you'll start guessing?  "Uh, he moved his plane by hand on Mile Hi, and I think that was the illegal part and possibly dangerous and could have distressed a mountain goat owned by a drunken aboriginal tribesman.”

Great, now PETA is involved. And NATO. And Al-Anon.


There is a video of a pilot flying through and arch.  Are you pissed at him because that's now illegal?  Have you blogged about him lately?

SoyWhat?

You are an anarchist.  But I am to be Soycautiouslycompliant?


--And then I'll take down my videos and some wise-ass will say "He took his toys and ran home.  He should of stood his ground. Swingle-your a pussy".

Watch and see smarty pants. 

Or better yet, turn off the computer. Tell your family how much they mean to you.  Take a walk.  Plant a house.  Build a tree.

We could do all three. She said.
soyAnarchisto offline
Supporter
User avatar
Posts: 1975
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:23 pm
Location: Boulder, CO
Aircraft: 1955 Cessna 180

Re: ID Div of Aero: New Big Brother Watching your YouTube Vi

This shit is silly at best...

Swingle, I love the videos and appreciate your unique style and satire. Don't let this get you down, very few pilots/people are capable of doing what you do, keep it up amigo!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Skalywag offline
User avatar
Posts: 783
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:52 pm
Location: Big Bend, TX

Re: ID Div of Aero: New Big Brother Watching your YouTube Vi

The real question is: Does anyone know where I can get a Trapper Keeper?
rw2 offline
User avatar
Posts: 1799
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:10 pm
Location: San Miguel de Allende
FindMeSpot URL: https://share.delorme.com/LaNaranjaDanzante
Aircraft: Experimental Maule
Follow my Flying, Cooking and Camping adventures at RichWellner.com

Re: ID Div of Aero: New Big Brother Watching your YouTube Vi

Any enviormental types go after bigger fish, instead of reading this thread. The comment about a plane being confiscated if landing on forest service land what a joke. This is your National Grasslands. Only problem is if you voice your opinion against this you will be put in prision. https://www.rt.com/usa/370135-pipeline- ... ll-dakota/
dougs offline
Posts: 46
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:51 pm
Location: plake

Re: ID Div of Aero: New Big Brother Watching your YouTube Vi

Mauleguy wrote:This is how it is worded on the Alaskan sectionals: Before landing fixed-wing aircraft on the lands or waters within the boundaries of lands administered by etc. etc...

This makes more sense the way it is written here for Alaska. Except for the fact that if you called the agency down here they would just tell you it is closed to aircraft, here in the lower 48 because they don't want aircraft landing anywhere except an airport.

Mauleguy


Don't try to compare aircraft access on public lands in Alaska with the same issue in the Lower 48. With reference to Alaska federally managed lands, ALL federal lands in Alaska were "Re-established" by the Congress via the Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act. That Act specifically permits aircraft landings on federal conservation units in Alaska unless specifically prohibited. There are indeed a few closures, mostly to avoid conflicts with other users, but there are very few.

On the other hand, there is no Act of Congress which permits aircraft landings on public lands in the Lower 48.

You need to try to separate your obvious attitude over the way the person who contacted you from the facts of the case.

As I pointed out earlier, EVERY National Forest has a very detailed Forest Plan that applies only to that forest. That plan for a particular Forest MAY prohibit aircraft landings on THAT Forest. I'm not suggesting that's the case where you landed. It may we'll be that Forest doesn't prohibit landings.

But bear in mind that their NEXT Forest Plan may.

I would also point out that I seriously doubt the person you ran into was actually a Law Enforcement Ranger. The FS has about one of those per Forest. And that's the person you need to talk to about specific Forest regs. Ask them to email you the text of those regs if you want something in writing...not a bad idea.

But if you go to several Forests assuming that aircraft landings are authorized based on the reg you cited, good luck. I know of two Forwsts here that specifically prohibit aircraft landings except at designated sites.

National Wildlife Refuges and National Parks in the Lower 48 specifically prohibit aircraft landings except at designated sites, and there are very few of those.

I worked as a federal LE type for 30 years, and I met a lot of attitude from some folks. I tried to never let that influence the situation or to return the favor. That's not universally true, but it should be. On the other hand, you need to realize that LE officer didn't write those regulations you despise so much......but it's his or her job to enforce them.

If you really feel that you were badly treated by an LE officer, or any other employee of an agency, go talk to that persons boss.....there's no excuse for that in any case.

MTV
mtv offline
Knowledge Base Author
User avatar
Posts: 10515
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:47 am
Location: Bozeman

Re: ID Div of Aero: New Big Brother Watching your YouTube Vi

This was a pretty serious case brought against me. I was asked by the head of the _______ ________National Forest (he was the boss) along with another pilot friend in a certified letter to contact the office asap. I did and a meeting was set up, more like an ambush, we probably should have turned around and left as soon as they State Police read us our rights but we did not because we did not feel we had anything to hide. I will not make that mistake again, they will be talking to my attorney!

We continued with the interrogation with them (State police, Fish and Game and the head of the _________ ________ National Forest) until the National Forest guy said I think we need to separate them. That is when we both said we were leaving. At that point the State Police and the Fish and Game persons were both satisfied we were not doing anything illegal and said the were leaving and had nothing to pursue any further with us. The National Forest person who I have already named still thought he was going to do something about what we were doing. And as I stated he totally left out huge parts of the CFR's that he was quoting. He was also using the AIM as his regulations which are not!

I understand what you are saying Mike but the facts are LE people are some of the worst people I have ever dealt with in handling the power in which they think they have. If he had anything on me I am sure he would have used it, because he really wanted too. It may be the way in which he exercised his power to begin with he knew it would not go well for him in a court of law. Literally cutting the parts from the CFR's that support my position and leaving all the stuff that supported his own.

It really rubs me the wrong way when someone in position of power overstep. Another true story here:
I was at Shearer in Idaho fishing for a week. At the end of the week I was loading up my airplane when up walks a guy in plain clothes and asks me how the fishing was. I tell him pretty good and even give him advice on some of the better spots. At that point he says he is an Idaho Fish and Game officer and asks to see my fishing license. I say that is pretty crappy way to handle this type of thing and ask why he does not have his uniform on and he says it's easier to catch people off guard. Do you think I will ever give free advice again to anyone asking me how the fishing is. Screw me once shame on you screw me twice shame on me!

I hate LE, hate is a strong word but that is the way I feel because most my life this is how I have been treated (see examples above) Oh and I have more. I am old enough to know that most the time the LE is around it is not going to do anything to enhance my life.
Last edited by Mauleguy on Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
Mauleguy offline
User avatar
Posts: 217
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:43 pm
Location: Washington

Re: ID Div of Aero: New Big Brother Watching your YouTube Vi

Skalywag wrote:This shit is silly at best...

Swingle, I love the videos and appreciate your unique style and satire. Don't let this get you down, very few pilots/people are capable of doing what you do, keep it up amigo!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
X2
OregonMaule offline
User avatar
Posts: 6977
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:44 pm
Location: Orygun
My SPOT page

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety". Ben Franklin
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin

Re: ID Div of Aero: New Big Brother Watching your YouTube Vi

Mauleguy wrote:This was a pretty serious case brought against me. I was asked by the head of the _______ ________National Forest (he was the boss) along with another pilot friend in a certified letter to contact the office asap. I did and a meeting was set up, more like an ambush, we probably should have turned around and left as soon as they State Police read us our rights but we did not because we did not feel we had anything to hide. I will not make that mistake again, they will be talking to my attorney!

We continued with the interrogation with them (State police, Fish and Game and the head of the _________ ________ National Forest) until the National Forest guy said I think we need to separate them. That is when we both said we were leaving. At that point the State Police and the Fish and Game persons were both satisfied we were not doing anything illegal and said the were leaving and had nothing to pursue any further with us. The National Forest person who I have already named still thought he was going to do something about what we were doing. And as I stated he totally left out huge parts of the CFR's that he was quoting. He was also using the AIM as his regulations which are not!

I understand what you are saying Mike but the facts are LE people are some of the worst people I have ever dealt with in handling the power in which they think they have. If he had anything on me I am sure he would have used it, because he really wanted too. It may be the way in which he exercised his power to begin with he knew it would not go well for him in a court of law. Literally cutting the parts from the CFR's that support my position and leaving all the stuff that supported his own.

It really rubs me the wrong way when someone in position of power overstep. Another true story here:
I was at Shearer in Idaho fishing for a week. At the end of the week I was loading up my airplane when up walks a guy in plain clothes and asks me how the fishing was. I tell him pretty good and even give him advice on some of the better spots. At that point he says he is an Idaho Fish and Game officer and asks to see my fishing license. I say that is pretty crappy way to handle this type of thing and ask why he does not have his uniform on and he says it's easier to catch people off guard. Do you think I will ever give free advice again to anyone asking me how the fishing is. Screw me once shame on you screw me twice shame on me!

I hate LE, hate is a strong word but that is the way I feel because most my life this is how I have been treated (see examples above) Oh and I have more. I am old enough to know that most the time the LE is around it is not going to do anything to enhance my life.


There is no doubt whatsoever that there are LE personnel and managers in all agencies who abuse their authority. It certainly sounds like this may have been the case with your encounter. About the only advice I can give in that kind of case is that those folks also work for someone. Ultimately, they work for the Congress, and you contacting your elected representatives MAY result in some consequences for them. I emphasize the may because not all Congress persons are that helpful. And, sometimes perceptions vary. But if you have documentation that you were provided with redacted copies of the regs, that is something that your elected representatives can go to bat with. Or rather their aides can.

That will be more effort on your part, I realize, and bring back memories you'd rather forget, but obviously you're not letting that memory go anyway. Will anything come of that? Maybe, but at the very least, it should create enough of a PITA for a manager that he/she may think twice next time. Ultimately, it may have serious consequences for those folks.

But either way, these individuals will have some explaining to do. And they should, at the very least.

One of my concerns when I retired was the "militarization" of many natural resource LE agencies. Unfortunately, that tends to bring with it some attitude on the part of some LE types. Even more unfortunately, some natural resource LE officers have been killed or assaulted on the job, so some of this is probably dictated by common sense.

Now, the IDF&G warden in plain clothes? Hey, that's just good game warden tactics. Sorry, but the bad guys use all kinds of tactics to avoid being caught....to catch a poacher sometimes requires a little covert operation. If the guy was polite and professional, and you were legal, where's the harm? There's no way he's going to share the information you gave him on where the big ones are.....that's hardly something wardens hand out.

Anyway, I feel bad for you in the FS case....it does sound as if you were badly treated, and that should never happen.

I for one am very frustrated by the FS rules because one should not have to do a bunch of research to determine if an activity is legal.

FWIW

MTV
mtv offline
Knowledge Base Author
User avatar
Posts: 10515
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:47 am
Location: Bozeman

Re: ID Div of Aero: New Big Brother Watching your YouTube Vi

The letter is comical if anything. It certainly isn't threatening. The Idaho DOA doesn't enforce laws. This was an employee with a misconception about "commercial" and an opinion that aviation access in the backcountry is easier to maintain if it is confined to some secret society or other.

If somebody were to even respond to it (I certainly wouldn't consider it worthy of a response), just send a nice little note thanking him for the compliments, and to please clarify where this pot of gold from "commercial" activity is. That's all.

If any brand visibility in the woods is prohibited, I'm in trouble. I've been on easily over 1/4 of the quadrangles in the RONR on foot and horse, and I have boxes of slides and photos that feature Kelty and Jansport packs, economical tents of various familiar makes, Raichle, Kastinger, and White boots, Optimus and Coleman stoves, Kastle and Rossignol skis, Swix wax, Ben Meadows tree climbing spurs, Dachenstein socks, Hamms beer (blechh), Pfleuger reels, Eagle Claw, Zebco, Sears, and Orvis rods, Victor traps, and Adams peanut butter. Lots of peanut butter back then, judging from the pics. I should get a check from them any day now. I didn't know that brand visibility was so important to government employees. Some of these photos have appeared in some local history books and wildlife journals with reference to Indian relics or work and include couple of issues of an FAA publication related to backcountry flying. Maybe they forgot to send me checks for my brand pimping. Or maybe nobody cares.
lesuther offline
Posts: 1429
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:26 pm
Location: CO

Re: ID Div of Aero: New Big Brother Watching your YouTube Vi

mtv wrote:....Now, the IDF&G warden in plain clothes? Hey, that's just good game warden tactics. ,,,


I disagree.
I've never been approached by a F&G guy like this, but I have been hijacked on jobsites by building inspectors who don't identify themselves until well into a conversation. IMHO if you're some kind of enforcement officer, you need to ID yourself unless it's some sort of official undercover operation.

Kind of reminds me of the unmarked or semi-unmarked Wa State Patrol cars I used to see (not so much any more).
Great for catching people and writing tickets, which equals revenue.
But IMHO a high-viz patrol car is better-- higher profile means people are seeing the cops and, knowing they're out there in force, behaving themselves. Preventative law enforcement instead of punitive.
hotrod180 offline
Supporter
User avatar
Posts: 10534
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:47 pm
Location: Port Townsend, WA
Cessna Skywagon -- accept no substitute!

Re: ID Div of Aero: New Big Brother Watching your YouTube Vi

4 pages of posts in just 5 days or so, wow.
Getting back to the original post....
I wonder if the guy writing the letter is just trying to suggest that off-airport and or "extreme" op's be kept on a lower profile?
I know people have asked me where I land on the grass at my airport-- I tell them, but suggest that they not do it during working hours in case an airport employee was to see it and make a fuss... thereby fucking it up for everyone.
Not trying to make or enforce rules, just suggest some common sense be used.
hotrod180 offline
Supporter
User avatar
Posts: 10534
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:47 pm
Location: Port Townsend, WA
Cessna Skywagon -- accept no substitute!

Re: ID Div of Aero: New Big Brother Watching your YouTube Vi

mtv wrote:Now, the IDF&G warden in plain clothes? Hey, that's just good game warden tactics. Sorry, but the bad guys use all kinds of tactics to avoid being caught....to catch a poacher sometimes requires a little covert operation. If the guy was polite and professional, and you were legal, where's the harm? There's no way he's going to share the information you gave him on where the big ones are.....that's hardly something wardens hand out.

Anyway, I feel bad for you in the FS case....it does sound as if you were badly treated, and that should never happen.

I for one am very frustrated by the FS rules because one should not have to do a bunch of research to determine if an activity is legal.

FWIW

MTV


Thanks Mike, I actually think you are probably one of the good ones, in a pool that in my experience lacks good ones.

That being said when I am with my family (wife, 6 year old daughter) camping for a week and not even at a stream with my line in the water and someone who is LE pulls this kind of crap it leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. I don't think they are doing any real service to the honor of the badge they hold if this is a tactic that is used for a circumstance that I just described. Slimy is the word that comes to mind!
Mauleguy offline
User avatar
Posts: 217
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:43 pm
Location: Washington

Re: ID Div of Aero: New Big Brother Watching your YouTube Vi

Just some random thoughts, which may or may not seem relevant:

I don't think the Idaho DOA letter is all that bad. It's certainly not a "cease and desist" letter, and it's not enforceable. It's just asking for cooperation. That being said, I don't think one agency has any business "pimping" for another agency--in this case a state agency doing it for a federal agency. Each should speak for itself. But in the interest of inter-agency cooperation, I can imagine a discussion over lunch where one agency rep who might have a little more influence in an area might say to the other agency's rep, "Oh, I can write a letter, and maybe that will solve the issue." No big deal.

On being confrontational with LEOs, I think that's a real mistake. None of us is smart enough (including the LEOs) to know all of the applicable laws and regulations. In my previous life as an attorney for almost 47 years, in addition to private practice, I had some subset positions--as a JAG in the USAF, a Municipal Judge, and a Justice of the Peace, and I can tell you that it was impossible for me to "know" all that I should have known. But if a LEO is going to threaten some sort of prosecution, s/he better be certain that there actually is a law or regulation that applies. That's a basic. That's why many LEOs carry a pamphlet with a synopsis of the laws and regulations that they most often have to enforce, and that pamphlet was prepared by someone else. So getting miffed at that LEO that something was left out isn't the way to do it--but pointing out the missing language is appropriate, just not confrontationally. You're trying to avoid going to court, not guaranteeing that you will go to court.

A simple example: When I was still in practice, I parked downtown and got lots of overtime parking tickets. But in nice weather, I rode my Vespa, and I purposely parked it in a doorway alcove of the building where my office was--on private property, expecting I had ameliorated my ticket problem--and I had permission from building management to park there. But I received a ticket from the City Parking Enforcement for parking a "motor vehicle on a public sidewalk". My solution: first I called Parking Enforcement and asked why they thought it was illegal to park there, and was told that the sidewalk goes to the building. The person I talked to wasn't willing to acknowledge that the building's owner owned that part of the sidewalk, not the City. So rather than going into a tizzy, I sent a nice informative letter to the City Attorney's office, asking them to advise Parking Enforcement that they had no authority upon private property, and that the alcove was indeed private property. A week later, I received a call from an assistant City Attorney, agreeing with me, which he followed up with a letter copied to the Chief Parking Enforcement officer. Nobody got angry, nobody felt belittled, but the job got done--they were wrong but didn't know it.

Another example, closer to the issue being discussed here. When I went turkey hunting, I shot at a specific turkey--and got him good. But a stray pellet got another turkey a good 8' from the first one, and killed him dead, too. I suppose I could have buried one of them and just kept the other, but I brought both of them back to my pickup, in the garbage sack I had with me for that purpose. As I arrived at the truck, a Wyoming G&F officer walked up and asked, "How's the hunting?" I was really upset with shooting two accidentally, and I told him so, and that I really didn't know what to do about it. He said that he saw what had happened (good thing I didn't bury one!), but he had to make a record of it, so he gave me a warning ticket. No harm, no foul (well, some fowl :)), and my contrite, apologetic attitude played a part, I think, in not getting a "real" ticket.

Suing any agency, whether of the State or of the Federal Government, is a very expensive, time consuming process. The feds have the Federal Tort Claims Act under which most lawsuits must be filed, and most states have a variation of something similar. You can't just sue because you're upset--you have to have a legal basis, and it has to fall within the confines of the applicable Claims Act. Don't even think of doing that, unless the circumstances are really aggravated--and nothing I've seen in this thread sounds very aggravated to me, FWIW.

On whether other agencies than the FAA have any authority to govern some aviation activities, in fact they do. The NPS and NFS certainly have the right to close or open airstrips on the public lands that they administer, and as Mike V said, many have their own sub-regulations in the form of land use plans. The CFRs may not have a specific prohibition, but that's not the whole story. There are also interagency cooperation agreements, and a whole host of various ways that one can find himself in difficulty with this or that agency.

Lastly, I have to say that I'm a little disappointed at the tone of some of the posts, not that anyone shouldn't have the right to stand up for themselves, but the ad hominem way some of it was done isn't good. It's Zane's right to do or not do anything about it, and from my observation he's always tended toward letting us self-moderate up to a point. But to avoid heavy handed moderation, I'd like to suggest that this forum is one of the more gentle aviation forums on the Internet, and I would hope that it will stay that way. We can agree to disagree with one another without calling each other names or impugning each other's heritage.

Cary
Cary offline
User avatar
Posts: 3801
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:49 pm
Location: Fort Collins, CO
"I have slipped the surly bonds of earth..., put out my hand and touched the face of God." J.G. Magee

Re: ID Div of Aero: New Big Brother Watching your YouTube Vi

I have to second what Cary said. After over forty years of practice, as both a prosecutor and private practice, what he is saying is more than good advice but words to act by. The federal claims act is very expensive and may not lead to the result you want.
Ron
Moss farmer offline
User avatar
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:44 pm
Location: Enumclaw
Aircraft: Cessna 1963 Cessna 182f

Re: ID Div of Aero: New Big Brother Watching your YouTube Vi

Hate Crime:
My rant was bringing things in from other discussions and that probably wasn’t fair. Some conclusions were being drawn from other sites, so that’s why I grouped the hate-crime stuff into the Ohio Bush Planes defense. Sorry if it put Zane’s peace loving site out (the white-boy-muslim-queer biblical part). I was not calling SoyArtiste a white-boy muslim queer. I am a white-boy myself for the most part, and learned long ago by watching prison movies that you can only call out your own race). I happened to love my Irish, English, German heritage as well as the other ones. Most people who travel do.

Confrontation:
I don’t usually bother with squabbles head-on unless they are addressing me [or my logos]—so game on. I almost dodged it all from the get-go because I don’t want to assert my midwestern whims upon an outdoorsy, western culture. It’s not my place to disrupt, but I’m friendly with some Idaho locals. I thought I’d see what they knew. They had their own thing going on I was unaware of, but I was happy to be drawn in on that thing. So, Soy of Boulder, that’s why I’m not angry at the guy who posted my letter. He’s a good guy and we are wearing the same jersey. It was a mis-understanding, but he had my blessing to use my video all up and down Facebook to rally his cause. It was mostly my own fault letting data leave my hands, and I can’t be mad at anyone for that. I’m sorry if I ruined any part of your day and I hope you will forgive me for that, but I’m not sorry I ranted. It needed to be done. Maybe I’ll be sorry for that when the fines start rolling in.

Too Much Information:
A few have pointed out that the letter is mild. You’re right. It is. It’s more personal and possibly doesn’t need to involve a committee to solve…but here we are.

A few years back the author of the letter wanted to use another video I worked on for his job. I was flattered and gladly let him. It was a positive experience. At that time, the Big Creek “illegal” video had been up for years and had thousands of web hits. It’s not a great video, but whatever. It was harder to make videos back then, so people watched it. Notice the cable and gaffer’s tape running down the top of the plane. It’s a standard definition lipstick cam. Also note in the video that I’m referencing a yellow Idaho map to find these strips. They were on the paper map. A government worker actually pointed them out. I hadn't heard of them other than Mile Hi. It's nice to locate all the strips when you're flying out there alone. It’s hard to dead-stick it into those strips when you have an emergency if you haven’t practiced, right?

Okay, BS aside—
Fast forward a few years to 2017, when I got this mild, yet less friendly letter from the same guy (There were also emails that accompanied this letter that are not published to the forums online). I questioned the letters. Sure, maybe I’m jealous of a salaried government worker who can make a few days work out of me, but I also felt a good-cop/bad-cop vibe, and that is always worth questioning.

If he had reached out and said something more creative like “Look, I know it’s not my place, and you’ve well passed the statute of limitations for summersaulting in the backcountry, and we like that you’ve helped increase the gross domestic product of Yellow Pine by 24 dollars AND decreased mid-air collisions by an estimated .000001%…but I want to get a job at the Forrest Service and if you play along and take that video down for a while I will look really good at my job interview”, I might have played along.

Instead I started asking if I really am wrong/bad/breaking the law. (I already know I’m bad, but the illegal part had me concerned).

I asked him for the laws that I’d broken and he said he would defer to the USFS and that they would contact me directly. But they didn’t. He passed emails between us. When I asked about statute of limitations I never heard back. But web forums work 24/7 and snowball out of control while government agencies only push paper Mon-Friday 9-5.

The Big Picture:
Where do I sit on the continuum? Here:

tree-hugger__X__________________________whale poacher

We are all nature lovers here. I just don’t feel like I’m doing anything wrong, nor that flying to these spots is a bad thing, or even adverse to the environment—even if I didn’t go there to camp or kill an elk. I am enjoying it. I stop and smell the bark of the pines and look at the flowers and the view. I love it. I’m not just flying there, running my wheels across the dirt and flying back to Ohio to tweet about what an outdoorsman I am.

I can understand that people in Antartica have to pee in bottles and keep the place as pristine as a data center. It’s in the name of science and discovery. And it kills me to see litter all over the road I live on. On top of Mile Hi there is a small disc (as in a farmer’s plow type implement). There have been travelers, miners, hunters and heavy aircraft with small tires at all of those strips for years. It is a part of their history. We have all taken pretty darn good care of the place if you ask me. It’s really remote. You will not find a meth addict there shaking and baking and tossing out the bottle. If you walked there, you have earned it. If you managed to come up with an airplane or a kayak to get there, you’ve earned it too, and the awe it induces inspires you to keep it as is for the next human or animal.

There will be the occasional flare-up from an activist or someone with their own angle going on. It’s important to fight it. Sometimes they are right. We don’t need poison in our drinking water, and all that. I’m glad there are activists. Sometimes you’ve got to be an activist too to keep what you’ve got. I love a good game changing documentary. The part we really need to worry about isn’t access to backcountry strips, but access to the sky at all. Unless you’re flying a drone for Amazon you might be stuck watching flying videos online to see the mountains and streams from above.

Privacy:
That being said…I took that particular youtube video listed in the letter down. I might take them all down. It’s not worth the mental drain it puts on me. It makes life not fun to have people talking about me and stresses out my dog and then he looses sleep. Then I don't feel like flying. I held out for a couple buddies, and hopefully their fight is won. If there is anything I can do to help keep access to backcountry strips open (that doesn’t involve censorship or stressing out my dog) let me know. You might have to let me know via email or snail mail (now that everyone has my mailing address). I would like to say that if you’re stalking me, that’s merely my mailing address. If you buzz that house I will not hear you and everyone else will. True story.
wyomingiswindy offline
User avatar
Posts: 252
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:17 am
Location: Mudville USA
Aircraft: RANS weight-shift machines

DISPLAY OPTIONS

PreviousNext
85 postsPage 4 of 51, 2, 3, 4, 5

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

Latest Features

Latest Knowledge Base