Bigrenna wrote: what really made me go with Jay was his kind and even demeanor. He was just nice. .

I think he's just a really good listener. He lets you talk. That's rare in this day and age.

Bigrenna wrote:Here's my update: On Fri, with Zane holding my delicate hand, I handed over a deposit for a cub kit to Jay.
...
One of the things I was keen on examining were all the variations of cubs up in AK. Round/square/flap up, flap down, trim up/trim down... bungees, shocks, heel/toe, standard/3", on and on and on.
...

Engine: locked in. 160hp O-360.
1st decision: narrow body, or wide (4" more)

And thanks to those that have reached out via DM and I've talked to on the phone. I'm enjoying all the opinions.

Congrats!
One of the magical things about cubs, put 10 pilots in a room and you'll get at least 50 strong opinions about cub mods - and then you'll find out half of them have never flown a cub!

I get to fly a 57 18A model, great bird. 160hp O-320(assuming you're not derating a 360) as well. Ours has most of the atlee dodge catalogue thrown at it(up gross X brace, 30.5 gallon tanks, VGs, extended baggage, CF sensenich, T3 tailwheel, etc.

Were I to build one, I think I'd go with standard width. Yeah it's a relatively snug airplane, but I'm 6' 235 and a bit broad at the shoulders and I've not felt it's too snug. I honestly don't think an extra 4" would add much comfort really and is the start of adding weight. I really like the Lotus design mantra - "Simplify, then add lightness."

160hp O320 is about perfect. Lightweight battery and composite prop. Might want 180hp if you're hauling gliders or something but the 320 feels like a great balance of power without getting too nose heavy.

I wouldn't do the 30.5 gallon tanks. Impossible to tell where you're at below 10 gallons and most cub flights are a couple hour legs at most so local fun flights it's tough to gauge fuel. Again - keeping it light. What I would do is maybe 24 gallon tanks(although the stock 18s would be fine) with CEIS senders and a belly pod with fuel provision(even just a compartment for fuel bags to keep them away from sleeping bag) for long trips and the Alaska run.

Square or round wingtips, take your pick. I'd probably build square with extended flaps and outboard ailerons but the round tips just look better. I really like VGs on piper wings(Microaero works well but experimental has options). I'd probably not mess with slats or PSTOL flaps.

Definitely the extended baggage, and I really like upper and lower doors.

We operate on floats, but I still wouldn't add a left door. I like the throttle where its at. Same on the flap handle - stock is fine. I'd probably commit cub treason and install toe brakes. Heel brakes are fine, but toe brakes are better and likely easier for those with limited ankle mobility from a lifetime of stupid decisions.

I would install float fitting even if you never intend to use them. Cubs on wheels are awesome. Cubs on floats are a class 1 restricted drug.

Probably would go fancy shocks because they're fun. We really like the T3. Ours is standard gear on 26 goodyears, hard to beat for some pavement use while rolling over anything we throw at it. I'm not Greg Miller.

There's some of my opinions - some stronger than others but all worth at best 2 cents.

DreadPirateWill wrote:...160hp O-320(assuming you're not derating a 360)...

Indeed. (typo) I have a wide deck O-320.

Since I really love the gestalt of the orig stock cub, my rough thoughts are these... although I am sure it will all change.

• narrow body
• round tips/feathers
• flap and trim in their orig spot (no elec trim)
• heel brakes
• all the common AK mods and both baggage.
• lofted flat floor
• 3" gear with shocks + T3
• 31s
• 18g tanks w/ belly pod. possibly combo pod (fuel/cargo)
• VGs
• larger RH door
• full slider on the LH (no door)
• float kit

Bigrenna wrote:

DreadPirateWill wrote:...160hp O-320(assuming you're not derating a 360)...

Indeed. (typo) I have a wide deck O-320.

Since I really love the gestalt of the orig stock cub, my rough thoughts are these... although I am sure it will all change.

• narrow body
• round tips/feathers
• flap and trim in their orig spot (no elec trim)
• heel brakes
• all the common AK mods and both baggage.
• lofted flat floor
• 3" gear with shocks + T3
• 31s
• 18g tanks w/ belly pod. possibly combo pod (fuel/cargo)
• VGs
• larger RH door
• full slider on the LH (no door)
• float kit

Approved

BRD wrote:Approved

LOL. Thx!

As stated before though... I'd love for this thread to be a learning experience for many... so I welcome as many opinions as possible. I have give or take a year to waffle, change my mind, revise my 10th list etc...

BRD wrote:

Bigrenna wrote:

DreadPirateWill wrote:...160hp O-320(assuming you're not derating a 360)...

Indeed. (typo) I have a wide deck O-320.

Since I really love the gestalt of the orig stock cub, my rough thoughts are these... although I am sure it will all change.

• narrow body
• round tips/feathers
• flap and trim in their orig spot (no elec trim)
• heel brakes
• all the common AK mods and both baggage.
• lofted flat floor
• 3" gear with shocks + T3
• 31s
• 18g tanks w/ belly pod. possibly combo pod (fuel/cargo)
• VGs
• larger RH door
• full slider on the LH (no door)
• float kit

Approved

Lol, 2nd. Motion to vote?
Definitely a solid build. Good luck revising over the next year.

Javron PA-18 and Javron PA-12 at Breezy Point last weekend.

The want list is perfect, functional without going overboard in any one direction. I have a thing for lift enhancement devices so I might give the PStol flaps a serious look but would forgo leading edge slat in an effort to retain cruise performance.

I did put float fittings on but probably won't use them. I'm float rated and would love to have a float plane but I live in Arizona and floats just wouldn't get much use. I went with 24 gallon tanks. I fly to Idaho fairly regularly (I'm from there) and the extra gas will be nice to have on that trip. I went with Acme shocks and plan on 31s. I also will not have electric trim and I also chose not to put an autopilot in. I could add it in the future if I decide to. I'm also not planning on ifr capability except as an emergency. No redundancy and no ifr navigator. I am leaving a spot in the panel for a garmin g5 if I change my mind. One thing I wish I had done was to have Jay add tabs for a belly pod. I plan on declaring a 2200 lb max gross and it looks like it might be difficult to get to that weight and remain in cg. A belly pod would help a lot. I can still do it, I think, but it will be more difficult.

Wayne

If only there was someone living and breathing supercubs the next state over. Fly up if you want to talk and fly cubs. I’ve put a few sets of slats on, one guy took them off and won’t say he doesn’t love them but he wouldn’t spend the money again. And his cub is slllooooooowwwww. With the square wings jay moves the stock aileron out and fills the gap with flap.

Tom wrote:If only there was someone living and breathing supercubs the next state over...

LOL. You know I'll be calling... hahahaha. I'm just so far at the beginning of this race. Just till recently I hadn't even decided if I wanted to run. Im in the "buying the outfit" stage. Haven't even digested the implications of training let alone running.

I was set on a +4” until I flew a standard width supercub. I really like the narrow fuse. For me a cub is like a motorbike, you really are part of the airplane. I haven’t been very far in it yet, maybe that will change my opinion.

EDIT: I just saw that you put in a deposit for the Javron. Congrats! I don't think you'll be disappointed at all. Jay's a great guy. I'll leave the below up so folks can read about Legend, if interested. Have fun! Johnny


You have a hard-earned CFI. Why build something you can only teach with a (very) limited population? However, I do understand the desire to go experimental. My wife and I built a Legend PA18 clone with our teenage daughter for the experience (and because I'm not an A&P like you). The process can be seen over at SC-dot-org. https://www.supercub.org/forum/threads/ ... ild.61135/ It took just under 18 months.

If I were to do it over, I would delete the Keller flaps because a decent stick doesn't need them for most scenarios, the 60g tanks if I were in the lower 48, and some of the avionics, but as a whole the usability of Legend's bush/field mods is extremely well sorted. Plus - and really important in my mind - they TIG weld their frames with an incredible welding duo who have done many frames. I would say that your remarks regarding the "feel" of their marketing is currently accurate in terms of their focus on STOL comps and that whole cultural phenom. Nevertheless, at his core Darin Hart (owner) is a down to earth, Supercub-obsessed tinkerer who will help a customer build almost exactly what the customer wants - not what the current trends are. For example, I incorporated a number of Alaska-specific mods that Darin now offers to new customers. You just have to know what you want to build and then stick to the plan, although he and his guys are extraordinarily flexible in making changes on the fly. One doesn't have to stick with that "MOAC" program.

The 3 seats are awesome!

We put an Aerosport IO375 with ground adjustable Sensenich prop, although built up the case to run a CS prop in the future. As it turns out, we frequently fly at gross up here and the weight on the nose would be helpful to keep CG within limits.

Ok - the sun just popped out on the Kenai, so off to fly. Hope this helps. Reach out with any questions. Johnny

Timbuk2 wrote:…Why build something you can only teach with a (very) limited population?

Thanks Johnny.

I enjoy teaching, but I don’t enjoy primary instruction. Pretty much all I’ve been doing is teaching guys how to fly a Cessna better, not how to fly a Cessna. I also do tail wheel endorsements, but always in the customer’s own airplane.

I did look into teaching out of a 170B I was going to build, but the insurance was gonna be $12k a year, which was preposterous.

The only instruction I’ll be doing out of a cub, will be with my own son. Perhaps a buddy here and there for free… But I’m not interested in exposing myself to any risks.

With respect to the other kits, i’m sure there are lots of nice folks making them. I got to spend some time looking over an “influencer’s” airplane, as well as the Airmen raffle bird. Both looked very nice, and certainly extremely well put together, with great attention to detail.

That said, when I inquired at sun and fun about kit costs, a woman, who really didn’t know what she was talking about, dug around and handed me a one sheet while quoting a price…I giggled.

By contrast, every time I would talk to Javron at a show, it was Jay who was answering my questions. I’ll let Jay quote his own kit prices, but I assure you, it was considerably less expensive as the the flashy airplane that’s all over my Instagram feed.

When I brought this up to Jay, and asked what I was not getting compared to the kit that I see advertised everywhere, he just smiled and said he worked hard at keeping his kits reasonable.

I suspect not having to pay influencer prices has a little bit to do with it.

Anyway, I really am in no position to comment about any other kits. Hell, half the parts I got to look at during my tour I had no idea what purpose they served other than to look sexy.

What was first and foremost in my mind was working with somebody whom I felt had my best interest at hand. Second, I wanted the best quality. Third, I was interested in value, but I certainly am willing to pay more for number one and number two. All I can say, is I’m pretty convinced I’m getting incredible value for money for a very complete. “kit”.

Time will tell.

I agree with you. Keep us posted on your progress, and come on over to SC from time to time. We have lots of technical stuff centered around these birds and I'd venture to say some of the most experienced Cub guys on the planet. Some of them are here as well, but it is a real nexus.
J

Someone school me; are the Weller Flaps a derivate of the PStol Flaps or vise versa, to the untrained eye they almost look identical ?

Mapleflt wrote:Someone school me;

Smarter folks may correct me… Doug Keller (SMrT guy) and Alex Wild designed Performance STOL Flaps. They were nicknamed “Keller” flaps.

Alaska Bushwheel/Airframes/AK Gear (confused already?) bought Performance STOL (P-STOL)

https://www.avweb.com/press-releases/airframes-alaska-purchases-performance-stol-keller-flaps/

Bigrenna wrote:

Mapleflt wrote:Someone school me;

Smarter folks may correct me… Doug Keller (SMrT guy) and Alex Wild designed Performance STOL Flaps. They were nicknamed “Keller” flaps.

Alaska Bushwheel/Airframes/AK Gear (confused already?) bought Performance STOL (P-STOL)

https://www.avweb.com/press-releases/airframes-alaska-purchases-performance-stol-keller-flaps/

Thanks for the clarification kind Sir.

Just read through this Greg - awesome dude! Even if I understood less than half

Love the pics of Jay's place and the work in some of those parts - I know you sent me the pics of the wings before but MY GOD the hours that must go into the manufacture, or the design for manufacture, is crazy. Buying in later in the process is such a good idea - making one rib is a skill, making 20 (30?) is just masochism.

Enjoy this brother.

We have a couple of old bush beater O320 / 160 cubs.
They both have 18 gal Piper wing tanks. They're uber light (the tanks), were in the plane and suffice.
I have dragged rags with cubs sporting 30.5 Atlee tanks, and would never purposely build myself such a rig. Impossible to discern fuel level at lower end (They're too long and flat), they don't lend themselves to setting wash out, and the lids or lack of sucks.
Having said all that, if you're adding a little weight for a stouter tank than Piper (a good thing) it is my opinion, that Dakota 24 gal tanks are probably the tank size today's cubs should have been born with. I suspect the same could be said of Jay's 24's.
Scenario; I have shot the trench a dozen times +/- and 18 gals. a side will work. It will not allow you to stop and fish a random gravel bar, turn in the scud and run back very far, or comfortably loiter with reserves. 24 a side is only one bay more. It rigs fine, reads fuel fine when low, and gives you an hour and a half longer legs.

My tanks were free (already in) if I were scratch building, and ever imagined this airplane going very far I'd consider this hard. It's just too easy to run 1/2 tanks when you don't need it all, and eliminates the need for gas bags or fuel pods when you do.
Take care, Rob