Legality issues with Owner Assist. Inspections & Maintenance

Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:58 am

Legality issues with Owner Assist. Inspections & Maintenance

AOPA has published an interesting article ( March 25, 2016) on the legalities of owner assisted inspections and maintaining an aircraft.

http://pilot-protection-services.aopa.org/News/2016/April/Owner-Assist-Annual-Inspection?WT.mc_id=160401epilot&WT.mc_sect=sap

Here is a brief clip from the article where a lawyer discusses the situation:

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And so, again, stated plainly, owner-pilots cannot actively participate in an annual inspection of their aircraft. You may think that I’m quibbling over the distinction between maintaining and inspecting, but it’s vitally important. Our law firm is presently involved in a case in which the FAA latched onto comments by a pilot who told the FAA that his A&P mechanic, a non-IA, did his annual inspection. The mechanic did certain maintenance, but an IA did the inspection part. Nevertheless, the pilot’s misstatement produced a torrent of FAA scrutiny resulting in two re-examinations and a proposed certificate suspension.

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I am not advocating for a change to the aviation lexicon. “Owner-assist annual” is a time-honored expression. Rather, I think it’s useful to deconstruct it for the sake of clarification. And, by the way, “Owner-assist maintenance during and/or preliminary and incidental to the annual” just doesn’t flow very well.

Flying for fun can be an expensive hobby indeed.

Last edited by Denali on Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

Denali offline

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Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:08 am

Re: Leglity issues with Owner Assisted Inspections & Mainten

The 'Fun police' are at it again. I really think that these govie workers have nothing better to do then sit around finding more ways to dissuade people from getting into aviation.
The great majority of guys I know (that are plane owners), are able to afford flying and aircraft ownership because they are able to assist with their annual inspections.

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Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:52 am

Re: Legality issues with Owner Assist. Inspections & Mainten

What's that old FAA T-shirt saying, "We're not happy.............."?

fshaw offline: Posts: 261; Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:32 pm; Location: Adirondacks

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Fri Apr 01, 2016 8:54 am

Re: Legality issues with Owner Assist. Inspections & Mainten

So the bottom line is don't go around saying you or someone else does illegal things to your aircraft. #-o

DENNY

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DENNY

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Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:18 am

Re: Legality issues with Owner Assist. Inspections & Mainten

One more reason I don't read the AOPA magazine...

I'm going to keep doing what I do, and if questioned about it I'll reply in complete honesty "I don't have complete recollection of that event." and leave it at that.

Hammer offline: Posts: 2094; Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:15 am; Location: 742 Evergreen Terrace

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Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:22 am

Re: Legality issues with Owner Assist. Inspections & Mainten

My answer.....I just hand him the tools when he asks for them.

Rich

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Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:49 am

Re: Legality issues with Owner Assist. Inspections & Mainten

I read that article earlier today. I think that writer must have run out of intelligent things to write about.
IMHO he's making a big deal over nothing.
Far as I know, it's not against any reg's to assist your IA during the inspection-- hence the perfectly legit description "owner-assisted annual".
I've even seen mechanics shop where the IA owner had a non-licensed mechanic working for him, apprenticing if you will. He was there to direct and supervise them, and to inspect and sign off the work when completed. Their PMI's were fully aware of what was going on and had no problem with it. How else is a mechanic supposed to acquire the skills and knowledge to earn his A&P license?

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Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:17 am

Re: Legality issues with Owner Assist. Inspections & Mainten

.
Denny wrote:
So the bottom line is don't go around saying you or someone else does illegal things to your aircraft.
DENNY

Denali offline

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Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Legality issues with Owner Assist. Inspections & Mainten

One more reason I don't read the AOPA magazine...

+1 I leave that craprag at the post office. I just peel off the mailing label. I still give my money to them, not sayin AOPA is all bad....

Anyone else get the "turbine pilot edition" I can't seem to get these folks to send me the "non turbine edition". Do they send these out to anyone who has a type rating for larger aircraft?

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Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:14 pm

Re: Legality issues with Owner Assist. Inspections & Mainten

I think the article's author, Mike Yodice, is giving incomplete advice, or at least unclear advice, and consequently, it's misleading. I don't believe the regs prevent any owner from assisting his IA; I think the issue is who does the inspection itself? In other words, assuming the proper owner/IA relationship, an owner can pull inspection covers, and do those things specifically allowed by owners who aren't mechanics, etc. But the ultimate responsibility for the inspection itself lies with the IA.

The IA can't, for instance, allow the owner to do something that the IA can't physically inspect once it's been put back together; he can't rely on the owner's assertion that it was done properly. For instance, let's say the owner pulls the spinner and prop of a Lycoming to install a new belt for the alternator, installs the belt, and then reinstalls the prop and the spinner. The IA can't just look at the prop to see if the bolts were torqued correctly or in the correct order, or if the safety wiring was done correctly. It may be that the owner is as talented as any mechanic and actually did the job exactly right, but the owner can't do the inspection, only the IA, and he must be able to actually inspect.

Cary

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Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:55 am

Re: Legality issues with Owner Assist. Inspections & Mainten

obxbushpilot wrote:.... I leave that craprag at the post office. I just peel off the mailing label. I still give my money to them, not sayin AOPA is all bad....
Anyone else get the "turbine pilot edition" I can't seem to get these folks to send me the "non turbine edition". Do they send these out to anyone who has a type rating for larger aircraft?

AOPA Pilot magazine is better than Flying magazine and their "affordable jets" mindset, but I don't really get much out of it. That's why I talked to them years ago about a no-magazine membership. They keep their magazine and I pay them $29 a year, instead of $59. BTW I just checked their website and I see they also have enhanced memberships for $99 & $179 a year also.

FWIW my annual renewal just came and they show it as a "family" membership. I'm guessing that would normally be for when you and your spouse are both members and don't want two magazines coming-- one would pay the full rate and the other the family rate.

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Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:00 am

Re: Legality issues with Owner Assist. Inspections & Mainten

The first sentence in this post made me cringe and wanting to kick a dog.. Or a baby.. Or something lol
"Here is a brief clip from the article where a lawyer discusses the situation"

Lawyers, attorneys, scumbags or whatever you choose to call them are the reason there are so many issue with aviation. They have had their hand in destroying GA for a while.. But that's a totally different topic, and I'll save that for another day.

First of all, some of us shop owners choose to allow customers to assist in maintaining their aircraft. It's a courtesy I provide to some of my customers for many reasons. Some like to work on their aircraft, some need to save a little money. Either way, they are not signing anything off, it's perfectly legal to allow non certificated persons to perform certain tasks as long as they are supervised. ultimatly, we know how to sign off log books, we know what the Feds want to see in log book entries and we know how to satisfy the regs requirement. Like someone stated before, how would someone get the experience needed to get a license (outside of attending a school) without working under someone. Whenever the lawyers get ahold of these types of things it unfortunately doesn't come down to right and wrong, it comes down to how much money one will have to defend themselves, this article almost seemed like the attorneys would like to be able to pin whatever issue on the mechanic instead of having some sort of possibility a pilot/owner could have caused whatever case they are trying to get judgement on. Why AOPA would choose to run this article is a little odd, I don't know why they would want to take owner assisted maintenance away from pilots is beyond me. And I think for the new impressionable pilot/aircraft owners who read these magazines religiously, its bad info.
Just my opinion lol.

Ben

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Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:30 am

Re: Legality issues with Owner Assist. Inspections & Mainten

My understanding from reading the article is that some guy got in trouble for telling the FAA that his annual inspection was done by a non-IA. I would expect the FAA to want to look into something like that.

Has little to do with normal, legal owner-assisted annuals. Seems like the author is trying to make the story a lot juicier than it is.

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Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:50 pm

Re: Legality issues with Owner Assist. Inspections & Mainten

as little to do with normal, legal owner-assisted annuals. Seems like the author is trying to make the story a lot juicier than it is.

I don't think non-rated folks could ever assist in an inspection other than something similar to holding the light.

Lots of things you can do in an owner assisted annual, but the inspection is only done by properly qualified and licensed mechanics...IA.

Many AP's and IA's won't let you assist at all for whatever reason. Legal or whatever. Like when I asked my plumber the cost of a job he said X Dollars. I asked what it would cost if I helped, he replied 2X Dollars.

We are dealing w/ semantics here and the author probably has a degree in journalism....maybe...and knows airplanes fly in the air and that is about it.

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Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:12 am

Re: Legality issues with Owner Assist. Inspections & Mainten

obxbushpilot wrote: I leave that craprag at the post office. I just peel off the mailing label. I still give my money to them, not sayin AOPA is all bad....

Speaking of AOPA Pilot magazine, a friend of mine told me that the featured pilot on the back-page profile in a recent issue was "Caitlin" Jenner. I didn't believe him until I googled it up.
Really? Of all the pilots in the world, this is the person they decided to showcase?

http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All- ... lot/pilots

hotrod180 offline: Posts: 10534; Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:47 pm; Location: Port Townsend, WA

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Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:21 pm

Re: Legality issues with Owner Assist. Inspections & Mainten

hotrod180 wrote:
obxbushpilot wrote:
Really? Of all the pilots in the world, this is the person they decided to showcase?

Oh, I'm sure Harrison Ford was still mentioned 8 times.

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Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:07 pm

Re: Legality issues with Owner Assist. Inspections & Mainten

Lawyer bashing aside, I still maintain that Mike Yodice's article is simply incomplete and therefore misleading. For all we know, the article may have been edited by someone on the magazine staff, omitting something that caused it to be misleading. I don't know what his undergraduate degree is in, but he's a good aviation lawyer. His dad, John, is one of the best aviation lawyers I know, and they're in the same firm.

And FWIW, Mike's a pilot, ASEL, ASES, AMEL. John is also a pilot, ASEL, ASES, AMEL, IR, and helicopter rated, and is an active CFI (SE, ME, helicopter).

On a personal note, bashing lawyers unnecessarily still rankles me, because 46 3/4 years of practicing law before I retired taught me that the vast majority of lawyers are good, honest, hard working folks who want to do the best that they can for their clients. To unnecessarily criticize all members of a profession just because of a bad experience with one member of that profession is unfair and unproductive. It would be like if I were to criticize all A&Ps or all IAs, because I know one who was dishonest or incompetent.

Cary

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Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:06 pm

Re: Legality issues with Owner Assist. Inspections & Mainten

@ Cary:

I remember that two of my favorite characters on TV were lawyers.

EG Marshall in the series The Defenders

and

Raymond Burr in the series Perry Mason

Boston Legal never interested me. I'm not much into TV these days anyway. I really liked The Defenders with EG Marshall, because they actually sometimes lost cases, and the bad guys got away with it. That left a powerful impression on people. Perry Mason never lost. If I ever say put non TSO wax on the spinner of my plane, and got cited by the FAA, Perry would be my man.

The musical themes were pretty cool too, IMHO
Perry Mason Theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT4wkkkaFTc

Denali offline

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Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:18 am

Re: Legality issues with Owner Assist. Inspections & Mainten

I spent two night taking apart the Yodis article.
I remember him being better than that or else I was dumber than a rock back then.
Then downloaded all pertinent faa regs and CIRCULARS.

The article had errors and was definitely written with a bias.
By the end of the second night I had most of my ducks in a row, but not all the official publications agreed 100%. Sometimes one word difference or slight semantics similar to the old Minor - Major debate.

After re-reading this thread, I will simply state that CARY and Ben Bdiasair have it pretty straight.

Actually an owner/pilot can do almost anything as a pre-annual that he is comfortable with and can make up a preliminary squawk list. (cannot do work that cannot be seen for insp. as it is re-assembled)
A/THE AI is the only one who can SIGN OFF any REQUIRED INSPECTION, ANNUAL, STC, Etc..