StuBob wrote:Years ago, it was common for people to forego seatbelts, saying they thought their odds were better if they were thrown clear of the wreckage. And, of course, in about one in 10,000 car wrecks, they’re right.

This line about getting trapped by an accidentally inflating life vest is the same thing. Get the ones made for aviation — the ones with the beads, not the T handle — and there’s a vanishingly small chance they’ll get deployed accidentally. If you’re submerged and inverted, there’s no way you’ll be able to retrieve them from the back seat. You won’t even think of it till you’re treading water, wishing you’d worn the vest.

So, to answer the question, this low-time seaplane pilot says “yay.” And to a flight instructor, I’d say “put it on or this lesson is over.” You’re the PIC, and when he drowns his heirs will come after you.

I don’t disagree that a beaded lanyard might be a little better, but my passengers (many hundreds) and I wore the Stearns vests with the larger flat handle for nearly thirty years of float ops. I NEVER had a passenger or myself unintentionally activate a vest. And, sometimes, especially around docks and in fast rivers, things get a little rushed.

So, I wouldn’t throw away a perfectly good vest with a ‘T handle”, and I wouldn’t spend extra bucks for a beaded one. It’s simply not an issue.

MTV

Like MTV my former employer required a float vest with survival gear pockets or equivalent when operating boats, working fish gear, or flying floats. The T-handle would get caught by gill nets or other things so I put a piece of velcro on the back and sewed the gripper half to the vest. Sticks the handle to the fabric until needed.

We also wore Stormy Seas fleece/cotton jackets issued when the Exxon Valdez oiled Prince William Sound in Alaska. They had a velcroed fabric cover over the inflator pull cord.

I still wear both but the new suspenders look nice.

Gary

To be clear, I was recommending the beads to the OP, whose passenger/instructor has an unrealistic fear of accidental inflation. I don’t think it’s important generally.

After reading the mixed responses, I thought I'd chime in on the subject since I've had the misfortune of dealing with this first hand.
I have taken the egress training as well as a refresher on egress training, which to me is a necessity for float flying. I won't go into the details of my mishap, however, the combination of egress training and wearing of a self inflating PFD, by all persons on board, is the reason we are all here today!
I've never tried swimming approx. 700 yards in 50F water without a PFD, but I know that wearing a PFD ensured that we made it to shore that day. Without a PFD, myself and 2 passengers would've been faced with a daunting choice of not making it to shore, OR sitting on the overturned floats and waiting all night for a rescue, which could've resulted in some serious hypothermia.
So long story short...I'm with MTV and the other YAY-sayers.

I suggest any float plane pilot or boater jump in the water with the clothes they normally wear...and with a flotation device that requires inflation. Try swimming a distance without the device, then with it inflated. See how the body reacts to the lack of buoyancy and then when it's available. What you may learn is what works to just stay afloat and what works to get to some other place nearby.

Some footgear or tall boots reduce or prevent effective propelling thrusts with the legs that works to move with bare legs or diving fins. If so then try other floating positions and use the arms. You may find floating on your side or back is more effective especially in a confused sea or whitecapped waves.

On one cold practice day I discovered holding onto a buoy, boat cushion, or upside down bucket full of air made all the difference in staying afloat.

Be sure to have sufficient survival gear with you always or in the flotation device to deal with exposure.

Gary

Another Yay from me. Everyone that flys in my plane on floats wears a manually inflatable PFD. I wear the sterns nomex PFD/vest MTV designed. I also wear it for all the 135 float flying I do...

A pair of life jackets always in my airplane for the two in the front seat. Extras as needed. Seems like cheap insurance to me.

I wear my Stearns vest with survival gear all the time in the 185 whether on wheels or floats. In the Beaver at work, non-auto inflating horse collars are required for everybody when we are on floats.

Another benefit is for the inevitable fall when you are on floats (there are those that have and those that will.) Whether you slip and bonk your head, bang your knee, or take the walk wire in-between your legs and into your groceries, there may be a time where you are in enough pain or dazed enough that inflating your life preserver will keep your head above water long enough until you can figure out a plan, especially if the water is cold and you start gasping...

Had the unpleasant experience of working a couple of drownings in the Boundary Waters this year. No life jacket on either fella…

akgreg wrote:Makes perfect sense that you were a part of it Mike since they are apparently made for people who are height challenged. Damn thing only goes to my belly button.

Other than being short, do they fit normally across the shoulders?
I'm debating between XL and XXL. I wear an XL in most clothing except Kuiu hunting stuff, where I'm an XXL.

As a result of this discussion I've purchase sufficient manual inflating jackets (horse collar style) for all seated positions, their used is now mandatory for all persons, on all flights. In addition seats belts will be buckled up during the departure water taxi and removed once down to water taxi speed on arrival.

Mapleflt wrote:As a result of this discussion I've purchase sufficient manual inflating jackets (horse collar style) for all seated positions, there used is now mandatory for all persons, on all flights. In addition seats belts will be buckled up during the departure water taxi and removed once down to water taxi speed on arrival.

Good for you! We all hope we'll never need these precautions, but it's so easy when you make them your routine that it simply makes no sense to go without. It only takes once to really, really wish you'd had safety gear in place.

MTV

albravo wrote:

akgreg wrote:Makes perfect sense that you were a part of it Mike since they are apparently made for people who are height challenged. Damn thing only goes to my belly button.

Other than being short, do they fit normally across the shoulders?
I'm debating between XL and XXL. I wear an XL in most clothing except Kuiu hunting stuff, where I'm an XXL.

If I recall (and its been a while) we ordered almost all XL, and they fit most males of the species reasonably well. So, if you're pretty big, might want to go with the larger size. Might want to call the distributor.

MTV

albravo wrote:

akgreg wrote:Makes perfect sense that you were a part of it Mike since they are apparently made for people who are height challenged. Damn thing only goes to my belly button.

Other than being short, do they fit normally across the shoulders?
I'm debating between XL and XXL. I wear an XL in most clothing except Kuiu hunting stuff, where I'm an XXL.

I’m 6’4” and 240 lbs and wear the XXL. The XL is fine for just a t-shirt but not enough room for a long sleeve shirt and jacket like a micro puff, which is my go to winter setup.

Test any floatation device out before using. Go for a swim - indoor pool or whatever if the weather allows. See how it works and floats you. Try swimming in whatever orientation the device allows. Better to know that before it's used.

Gary

PA1195 wrote:Test any floatation device out before using. Go for a swim - indoor pool or whatever if the weather allows. See how it works and floats you. Try swimming in whatever orientation the device allows. Better to know that before it's used.

Gary

Good advice. I also inflated each vest in spring before float season with the co2 cartridge and left it overnight, to ensure it’d hold pressure. Then replace cartridge and ready for float season.

In addition, eventually,the cover of these things get kinda dirty. It’s not too hard to remove the cover and wash it, then put it back together.

MTV

In case anybody else reads this thread and decides to jump on a Nomex Survival Vest, I spoke to Eagle this morning about XL vs. XXL.

He recommended sizing up. I'm 6'2", 220 and he recommended the XXL, he said they are designed to fit a bit loose because they get pretty big when inflated and if they are snug they won't have enough room to inflate comfortably.

Also, there website isn't working right now for purchase or for contacting them, I found their phone number on the "Services" tab and called the Anchorage number. They were very helpful.

I wear one for sure. Talked to a guy out of Ontario who was instructing in a Skywagon, they crashed and he went through the windshield, broke the BAS harness. He wound up in the water conscious, but with numerous serious injuries, he was definitely not able to swim and his inflatable actually picked up a hole in the crash but he was able to blow into the tube and just barely keep himself floating until help came. He certainly would have drowned if he hadn't been wearing a vest.

I've heard the theory of the vest hanging up on things on the way out of the crash but I haven't heard any stories of it actually happening, lot's of stories of people drowning without a vest though. A lot of the water around here is too cold to swim in for very long for a lot of the year.
Even if you're a strong swimmer how strong a swimmer will you be fully clothed and directly after a plane crash? What if you're injured or barely staying conscious?

I received my Stearns inflatable vest and love it. The XXL will be a bit baggy in summer but right now it fits perfect. I really like the option of the manual inflation blow tube in case the inflation system fails or there is a small leak. None of my other vests have that.

I have a bivvy bag vacuum sealed in the back compartment and a strobe, water filter, a few energy bars and plenty of firestarting tools in the front pockets. I usually have my DeLorme on a magnetic mount in the plane but will probably start flying with it in the vest.

I am very comfortable that I could survive for a few days with the contents of that vest and the Leatherman Wave that is always on my hip.

This discussion seems focused around float operators who spend a lot of time on the water. I'm interested in flying to the Bahamas in a wheeled airplane. No water landings planned, but the possibility of ending up in it can't be discounted.

It's a given that all occupants would wear a life jacket and we would have a raft on board. Would a good-quality closed-cell foam Type III PFD like you might use in a boat be sufficient? Or should I get the inflatable type? Also, I'm concerned that egress might be harder for back seat passengers. Does anyone have any thoughts on tips for egressing from the back seat of a Cessna? Or is it not appreciably harder than getting out of the front seat?

I went through a 5-day water survival course 20 years ago that included a few trips through the helicopter dunk tank plus a few hours floating in a 1-man raft. That experience gave me a healthy respect for this topic, and that was in Pensacola Bay in May!

Thanks!

slowmover wrote:This discussion seems focused around float operators who spend a lot of time on the water. I'm interested in flying to the Bahamas in a wheeled airplane. No water landings planned, but the possibility of ending up in it can't be discounted.

It's a given that all occupants would wear a life jacket and we would have a raft on board. Would a good-quality closed-cell foam Type III PFD like you might use in a boat be sufficient? Or should I get the inflatable type? Also, I'm concerned that egress might be harder for back seat passengers. Does anyone have any thoughts on tips for egressing from the back seat of a Cessna? Or is it not appreciably harder than getting out of the front seat?

I went through a 5-day water survival course 20 years ago that included a few trips through the helicopter dunk tank plus a few hours floating in a 1-man raft. That experience gave me a healthy respect for this topic, and that was in Pensacola Bay in May!

Thanks!

I'd spring for good inflatable vests for all occupants to ensure they are worn during all over water flights on a trip like that.
Closed-cell foam Type III PFD would certainly check the box and satisfy the requirement but would be no fun to wear in an airplane (or even on a boat) and would likely end up stuffed under luggage by the end of the trip.

For rear seat egress; the largest risk is probably the front passengers instinctively sliding their seat aft when they exit - blocking the rear passengers.