So, after a long hiatus from flying, I climbed back in the left seat again yesterday and started working on my Flight Review. I flew with an instructor (obviously, since I'm overdue for my BFR anyway), and I was the "sole manipulator of the controls" for our 1.5 hour flight.

The instructor signed my log book at the end of the flight, and put the times in himself. He logged this as 1.5 hours of "Dual Received" and 1.5 hours of "PIC time" (for me) in my logbook. Now, it has been a while since I've flown, but I was always under the impression that I couldn't log "Dual Received" and "PIC Time" simultaneously (that's what I was told by both of the two prior instructors I had — which covered both my PPL and my Instrument Rating).

So, who is right here?

Did I erroneously receive PIC time yesterday for a flight that I couldn't have been PIC on? Or, have I failed to log about 80 hours of PIC time in the past that I should have logged in that manner?

Expert opinions are welcome! Also, I've read the regs on this subject as best I could, but it doesn't seem to directly address this particular question (of a rated pilot receiving dual who is also the sole manipulator of the controls). Obviously I'd like to log PIC time whenever it is legally permissible to do so, but I don't want to log time that will be questioned at some other point down the road!

During my PPL, I just accepted whatever the CFI put in my logbook and didn't think much about it. But when I started my Instrument Rating, I asked the same question about logging PIC time. My CFII told me to go look it up and get back with him. Based on what I read and confirmed by my CFII, you can log PIC time even with a CFI aboard.

According to FAR 61.51...
(e) Logging pilot in command flight time
(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command time for flights -
(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

According to (d)(3), the CFI gets to log PIC time also as long as he is rated to act as PIC of that aircraft and if he is acting as an authorized instructor.

The initial student pilot stuff is covered in (D)(4). Solo endorsement and sole occupant.

I actually went back and looked at my logbook for my PPL and it jives with the FAR.

Update...upon further review...according to 61.56 (c), you cannot act as PIC without a BFR. But, your instrument rating training time would still be PIC time.

JB

No expert here, but the Navy logs PIC time for sole manipulator (rated pilots, anyway). In the Army we log it by who is listed as the PC on the flight schedule.

I think what he logged you was correct as you were the sole manipulator AND were rated. But I could be wrong.

He logged it correctly.

A CFI can log PIC anytime he/she is performing their duties as a CFI.

You can log PIC for the time that you are sole manipulator of the controls and are rated in the airplane.

The difference is sometimes subtle, but it involves acting PIC vs. logging PIC.

Note that if you plan on ever flying for a living, potential employers will not look kindly upon stating PIC time that was gotten through the 'sole manipulator of the controls' clause. They're only interested in time that you were acting PIC (time where you signed for or were solely responsible for the aircraft).

This might help.

http://www.yodice.com/images/2010_March ... rticle.pdf

It's my understanding that if you're certified to pilot the type the dual is in, it can be logged as pic time, but I could be wrong. When I fly with instructors, they usually fill-in pic and dual, but not always.

It's legal to log it as he did. There is no prohibition on dual received and PIC logging for the same hours, so long as you are qualified to log it as PIC. In the end, it hardly matters, but as a point of legal detail, he was correct, and you are fine to leave it as he entered it.

Cannon wrote:He logged it correctly.
Note that if you plan on ever flying for a living, potential employers will not look kindly upon stating PIC time that was gotten through the 'sole manipulator of the controls' clause. They're only interested in time that you were acting PIC (time where you signed for or were solely responsible for the aircraft).

This is a very important point. Regardless of what the regulations permit, many if not most commercial aviation outfits want to see PIC time as time you were actually "in command" of the flight.

MTV

mtv wrote:

Cannon wrote:He logged it correctly.
Note that if you plan on ever flying for a living, potential employers will not look kindly upon stating PIC time that was gotten through the 'sole manipulator of the controls' clause. They're only interested in time that you were acting PIC (time where you signed for or were solely responsible for the aircraft).

This is a very important point. Regardless of what the regulations permit, many if not most commercial aviation outfits want to see PIC time as time you were actually "in command" of the flight.

MTV

Okay, that helps to clear it up, kind of.

At this point I don't really have plans to fly professionally. I did back when I first started training many years ago, but I went in a different direction career-wise. But, I've always figured that I might someday pick up a CFI rating, and do some training just for the enjoyment of it. Because of that, and any other possible legal concerns, I was wanting to make sure I'm on the right side of the law.

So, at this point should I go back and adjust my Instrument training? I was certainly the sole manipulator of the controls on those flights, and was rated in those airplanes… it was just the policy of that flight school not to log more than one person as PIC.

Aside from professional flying, can't this make a difference when requesting quotes on insurance, etc?

I'd be careful "adjusting" any flight times logged and signed by an instructor without that instructors concurrence. To me, legal or not, it's an ethical breach to change an entry that an instructor logged and put his/her signature on.

If you really care, go chat with that instructor and see what they say, or with the chief instructor there....show them the cites posted here.

As to your insurance changing as a result of that much additional PIC time....probably not.

MTV

mtv wrote:I'd be careful "adjusting" any flight times logged and signed by an instructor without that instructors concurrence. To me, legal or not, it's an ethical breach to change an entry that an instructor logged and put his/her signature on.

If you really care, go chat with that instructor and see what they say, or with the chief instructor there....show them the cites posted here.

As to your insurance changing as a result of that much additional PIC time....probably not.

MTV

It's probably not worth it at this point, if it's just going to muddy the waters. That training was completed over 13 years ago, in another state, and at least one of the instructors doesn't even fly these days (I think he sells cars now). The other instructor has moved on to bigger and better things — and I haven't personally talked to either of them in at least 12 years.

When I got my initial ratings it was through a university's degree program, and I remember raising the question of log book time with them back then. They were all pretty much under the same impression that it wasn't legal to log it as you guys described in this thread. But, based on my reading of the regs, my new instructor's opinion, and everyone's opinion around here, it seems like that was an incorrect interpretation. Besides, the old opinion seemed to be based on group-think and a theory of "that's what I was told" more than anything else… it's just how everyone was logging their time at that school.

Anyway, I do appreciate all of the advice!

Having hired many pilots, I pretty much quit looking at logbooks, especially at the detail level we are talking about. The fact is that many folks pencil whip their times, and many pilots with legit time still can't fly. The numbers on the resume will get you a first ride, with that I can pretty much tell what kind of pilot you are by the time we take off, and whether or not i am going to invest company money and time in you. In other words don't worry too much about it, it is your logbook.

Headout has it right. That's why I said it really isn't important...log it either way, what really matters is whether you can fly.

And I would not go back into a logbook to make changes like that. If you keep flying, you will have lots of PIC time before you know it. If you don't keep flying, it won't matter how many little adjustments you make to how things were logged.

My two cents.

coloradokevin wrote:When I got my initial ratings it was through a university's degree program, and I remember raising the question of log book time with them back then. They were all pretty much under the same impression that it wasn't legal to log it as you guys described in this thread. But, based on my reading of the regs, my new instructor's opinion, and everyone's opinion around here, it seems like that was an incorrect interpretation. Besides, the old opinion seemed to be based on group-think and a theory of "that's what I was told" more than anything else… it's just how everyone was logging their time at that school.

Anyway, I do appreciate all of the advice!

Boy, do I know that feeling . I've spent a lot of time citing chapter and verse to instructors of a large collegiate flight program........grrrrr.

MTV

If you were to do a search in the AOPA forums, right seat/left seat, and in the studentpilot.com forum, and I suspect in many other pilot oriented forums, this question comes up regularly, and the answer is always the same. The person who is the actual PIC (i.e., in charge of the flight) if he/she is an instructor and is instructing, can log PIC time without touching the controls. The person who is the "sole manipulator of the controls" can also log PIC time. If it's just a couple of buddies flying together, A being the actual PIC and B being the "sole manipulator of the controls", A cannot log any PIC time, and B can.

From an FAA legality standpoint, falsification of the log book is the issue, and nobody is going to count the hours all that much--unless you're using specific hours to be eligible to take a flight test for a rating or certificate. If you show up for a flight test, for instance, with only .1 hour more than what is required for XC time for an instrument rating, the DPE is likely to do some hour counting. If you show up with 50 or 60 hours more than necessary, probably not. If you failed to count hours you could have counted, nobody will care (except maybe you).

With the newer 1500 hour requirement for ATPs, total hours is important as are cross country hours as PIC. Again, arriving for the checkride with the bare minimums is likely to be scrutinized.

The issue for most employers, whether they require an ATP or not, will be, can you fly? Hours may be important in some cases, but I suspect that if a 10,000 hour ATP with a commercial SES applied to Headoutadaplane and hadn't flown in any single in the last 20 years let alone a seaplane, those 10,000 hours wouldn't mean squat. The only issue would be, can he fly the Beaver on floats to the extent that he and all of the passengers will be safe?

Cary

1) He logged it correctly.

2) I've never seen or heard of anyone splitting the hair of what kind of PIC time it was and, so long as it was logged per the guidelines in the AOPA article, it is valid and counts.

3)I would have no issue with correcting your logbook if it was time you could have legally logged and it wasn't logged due to a CFI's mistake or lack of understanding. One simple line correcting the totals with an explaination of the change. Don't correct each the individual entries. Keep it neat. It really boils down to can you explain the change. And anyone scrutinizing your logbooks should be knowledgable enough to know if it was indeed correcting a mistake in how the time should have been logged in the first place. In your case, it's probably inconsequential, but for someone else reading this, particularly if looking to fly for a living, it would be worth it. I've got a few corrective lines in my logs for these very reasons and they were never mentioned in all the interviews or check rides I've done.

This is, in my opinion, another area that gets little attention when training CFIs and ought to have a little more emphasis on during the CFI rating.

Oh, and another suggestion: log each flight in pen and the totals in pencil (at the bottom). This can help correct small mistakes more easily with less mess.

It is legal to log it that way and also correct. A fine distinction is that your were not able to "act" as pilot in command, as your BFR was expired.

littlewheelinback wrote:It is legal to log it that way and also correct. A fine distinction is that your were not able to "act" as pilot in command, as your BFR was expired.

Yeah, I almost added that to my original post, but didn't want to muddy the waters too much in my initial question. But, you're obviously correct in saying that you can't act as PIC outside of your BFR window. So, I suppose in that instance this flight instructor was still wrong?

I gather from most of this thread that this boils down to not a very big deal in the grand scheme of things. I'm not currently eyeing a move into aviation professionally, as I'm about mid-career in another industry at the moment. But, I never want to rule out the idea that I'll try to make such a move in the future, and mostly want to make sure that I'm correctly dotting the I's and crossing the T's.

coloradokevin wrote:Yeah, I almost added that to my original post, but didn't want to muddy the waters too much in my initial question. But, you're obviously correct in saying that you can't act as PIC outside of your BFR window. So, I suppose in that instance this flight instructor was still wrong?

I might be misunderstanding your question, but I think you're asking about "acting" as a PIC (signing for an aircraft, being the sole pilot responsible for the flight, etc.) vs. being the sole manipulator of the flight controls and logging PIC time.

I think the instructor was correct. He signed for the aircraft so to speak, and you did all the flying. You solely manipulated the controls and got the PIC time for your logbook.

So, I suppose in that instance this flight instructor was still wrong?

No. The instructor was right. Acting as PIC and logging PIC are not the same thing. In a single pilot aircraft, in part 91 operations, a pilot may log PIC time for anytime he/she is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft in which he/she is rated. Acting as PIC requires that the pilot is qualified to act as PIC and has a current medical and BFR and if carrying passengers has 3 take offs and landings in the last 90 days in category and class.

Your logbook entry is fine.