Here is something interesting since you mentioned 3 landings in 90 days. Student and instructor neither have made 3 takeoff a and landings in 90 days to a full stop for night currency. Can they go fly together to establish currency? Here's an excerpt from an article by Kathy Yodice from AOPA.

"Basically, this is my question: If I had a flight instructor on board the aircraft during my night flight to gain night currency, and if the flight instructor--like me--was not night current, would the flight be in violation of the regulation? At first, I would think to say "Yes, that's a violation because neither one of the pilots is night current to be able to carry another person on board the aircraft." But, the FAA says, "No, it would not be a violation because neither pilot is a passenger." Here's what the FAA says:

We agree that, for purposes of section 61.57(b), an authorized instructor providing instruction in an aircraft is not considered a passenger with respect to the person receiving instruction, even where the person receiving the instruction is acting as PIC. (The instructor must be current, qualified to instruct, and hold a category, class, and type rating in the aircraft, if a class and type rating is required.) The instructor is not a passenger because he is present specifically to train the person receiving instruction. Neither is the person receiving instruction a passenger with respect to the instructor. This training may take place, even though neither pilot has met the 61.57(b) requirements.

So, not only is it legal to take a night flight when you and your flight instructor are not night current, but both may also log it as PIC. But be careful--only a pilot who is the sole manipulator of the controls for three full-stop landings at night would be able to log the landings for purposes of night currency under FAR 61.57(b). That's something to consider when you need to get night current."

She specifically addresses night currency here. I wonder if the the same would apply for day instruction. Seems it would based on the FAA's explanation.

Grassstrippilot wrote:Here is something interesting since you mentioned 3 landings in 90 days. Student and instructor neither have made 3 takeoff a and landings in 90 days to a full stop for night currency. Can they go fly together to establish currency? Here's an excerpt from an article by Kathy Yodice from AOPA.

"Basically, this is my question: If I had a flight instructor on board the aircraft during my night flight to gain night currency, and if the flight instructor--like me--was not night current, would the flight be in violation of the regulation? At first, I would think to say "Yes, that's a violation because neither one of the pilots is night current to be able to carry another person on board the aircraft." But, the FAA says, "No, it would not be a violation because neither pilot is a passenger." Here's what the FAA says:

We agree that, for purposes of section 61.57(b), an authorized instructor providing instruction in an aircraft is not considered a passenger with respect to the person receiving instruction, even where the person receiving the instruction is acting as PIC. (The instructor must be current, qualified to instruct, and hold a category, class, and type rating in the aircraft, if a class and type rating is required.) The instructor is not a passenger because he is present specifically to train the person receiving instruction. Neither is the person receiving instruction a passenger with respect to the instructor. This training may take place, even though neither pilot has met the 61.57(b) requirements.

So, not only is it legal to take a night flight when you and your flight instructor are not night current, but both may also log it as PIC. But be careful--only a pilot who is the sole manipulator of the controls for three full-stop landings at night would be able to log the landings for purposes of night currency under FAR 61.57(b). That's something to consider when you need to get night current."

She specifically addresses night currency here. I wonder if the the same would apply for day instruction. Seems it would based on the FAA's explanation.

Yes, the same applies to day currency. It has to do with the term "passenger" in the rule about currency. The rule essentially says that a pilot must have completed three landings in the past 90 days to carry a passenger.

A Flight Instructor, in this context, is not a "passenger", they are a "crew member" by FAA definition. And, the pilot is obviously not a "passenger" either, so a Flight Instructor is not carrying a "passenger" either.

I had that conversation with a really sharp FAA POI a number of years ago. It's based on a Chief Counsel's opinion.

MTV

mtv wrote:

Grassstrippilot wrote:Here is something interesting since you mentioned 3 landings in 90 days. Student and instructor neither have made 3 takeoff a and landings in 90 days to a full stop for night currency. Can they go fly together to establish currency? Here's an excerpt from an article by Kathy Yodice from AOPA.

"Basically, this is my question: If I had a flight instructor on board the aircraft during my night flight to gain night currency, and if the flight instructor--like me--was not night current, would the flight be in violation of the regulation? At first, I would think to say "Yes, that's a violation because neither one of the pilots is night current to be able to carry another person on board the aircraft." But, the FAA says, "No, it would not be a violation because neither pilot is a passenger." Here's what the FAA says:

We agree that, for purposes of section 61.57(b), an authorized instructor providing instruction in an aircraft is not considered a passenger with respect to the person receiving instruction, even where the person receiving the instruction is acting as PIC. (The instructor must be current, qualified to instruct, and hold a category, class, and type rating in the aircraft, if a class and type rating is required.) The instructor is not a passenger because he is present specifically to train the person receiving instruction. Neither is the person receiving instruction a passenger with respect to the instructor. This training may take place, even though neither pilot has met the 61.57(b) requirements.

So, not only is it legal to take a night flight when you and your flight instructor are not night current, but both may also log it as PIC. But be careful--only a pilot who is the sole manipulator of the controls for three full-stop landings at night would be able to log the landings for purposes of night currency under FAR 61.57(b). That's something to consider when you need to get night current."

She specifically addresses night currency here. I wonder if the the same would apply for day instruction. Seems it would based on the FAA's explanation.

Yes, the same applies to day currency. It has to do with the term "passenger" in the rule about currency. The rule essentially says that a pilot must have completed three landings in the past 90 days to carry a passenger.

A Flight Instructor, in this context, is not a "passenger", they are a "crew member" by FAA definition. And, the pilot is obviously not a "passenger" either, so a Flight Instructor is not carrying a "passenger" either.

I had that conversation with a really sharp FAA POI a number of years ago. It's based on a Chief Counsel's opinion.

MTV

And just like the CC's opinion makes little sense for night currency, that interpretation (although correct) makes little sense for day currency. After all, the purpose of these requirements for us ordinary peons is that we'll be more likely to be semi-competent if we fly more frequently. So let's take the night issue, since it's more "difficult" to safely operate at night:

Super CFI hasn't made a real night landing in a year, though he's watched a number of his students make them. Newbie Student has never made a night landing. They go out in Newbie's newly purchased airplane. For the moment, let's assume that Super has beaucoup hours in make and model. Newbie comes around from base to final, and he's way high and a bit slow. Super tries to talk him down to a reasonable approach path by saying "lower the nose some more", which seems to work, but just as they're over the numbers at 30' AGL with everything looking pretty good to touch down on the 1000' markers, Newbie chops the throttle, the nose drops, Super hollers "my airplane" and grabs the yoke, but the arrival is hard enough that things bend, and both get injured.

Does anyone here think Super's lack of actual night currency might have played a significant part in the outcome?

Cary

Here is another currency thing I've never understood. My work instrument currency counts across the board, but night landings are by category and class (and type if required). So I spend all winter flying a ton at night landing a multi engine aircraft, but it doesn't keep current for my SEL. Same is true for day, but I can't remember the last time I wasn't current for day SEL. As we all know, night currency is something that lapses more easily. And taking it one step further, at work I may go 4-6 months without a night landing, but because it's in the 121 world, no problem. You're good to go. Not much common sense in my opinion.