dogpilot wrote:It starts on page 21 and continues on page 22 of the TC, part of revision 66 of TC 3A13

Not applicable to a rather large number of 182's. Including, curiously, mine.

Good discussion, and no I wasn't flying before the PA18 was born. As most of us when we were student's I believed what my instructor told me. I think a bigger point is the FAA is really starting to go by the letter of the law in all regards. The lawyers are really running the show these days so be careful.

mtv wrote:

gbflyer wrote:

mtv wrote:Ken,
Not all. Actually, that AOPA quote came to my attention by one of my commercial students in my Systems class. He thought he'd caught me in error, till I gave him a tourer of the TCDS for ten or so "old" airplanes, all of which called for an AFM.

porter jet,

The FIRST PA 18 came with an AFM. Just how long you been flying?

GB,

I flew in AK for 30 years, got ramped a number of times, every one asked for AFM data. There are Inspectors who are dumber than dirt, no doubt...... But, does the TCDS for YOUR plane require an AFM? Some don't

MTV

I don't know. Don't have it anymore and my current airplane is still in pieces at the Rans factory. I guess I get to write some of the rules for this one being that I or one of my partners will be the manufacturer.

This is an excellent discussion and I am glad it came up. Paperwork is what runs the world these days. Everybody check and see what they need for their aircraft. Could save you from some major hassle down the line.

Edit: By serial number, no AFM required by TCDS until the later 180J models which must be around '74 or '75. That's the way I read it anyway.

From TCDS:

NOTE 1.
The basic required equipment as prescribed in the applicable airworthiness regulations (see Certification Basis) must be installed in the aircraft for certification. This equipment must include a current Airplane Flight Manual effective S/N 18052490, 18053001 and on.

Nope, you didn't read the WHOLE "Applicable to all models" section....the EARLIEST 180s also require an AFM.

MTV

When I read 5A6 it says to me that an AFM is only REQUIRED for those serial #'s called out. 1st paragraph on page 17. It then goes on to placards in note 2 and includes 180 through 180B "...must be operated in normal category in compliance with the flight manual."

So to me that means I have to operate it with the placards and comply with the flight manual but the flight manual isn't required equipment.

I ain't no lawyer but plenty have interpreted this the same way. So, that's why uneducated blue collar rednecks like me have a hard time interpreting it right there in the black and white of the TCDS, folks.

Lets not beat this to death, but lets say a fed comes and queries you about required placards and markings. The AFM would have those required items listed, so produce it so he can check compliance. You see it is kind of a circular argument, you need it to show compliance with the TC. Again, if in doubt, just call Cessna's customer support, you can even do it online: https://support.cessna.com/custsupt/csupport/newlogin.jsp

Then if they don't have one, make a note of who and when you called and keep that as a protective record. Call and put paid to the whole thing, you may thank yourself if you ever have an encounter with a fed or have an insurance claim.

dogpilot wrote:Lets not beat this to death, but lets say a fed comes and queries you about required placards and markings. The AFM would have those required items listed, so produce it so he can check compliance. You see it is kind of a circular argument, you need it to show compliance with the TC. Again, if in doubt, just call Cessna's customer support, you can even do it online: https://support.cessna.com/custsupt/csupport/newlogin.jsp

Then if they don't have one, make a note of who and when you called and keep that as a protective record. Call and put paid to the whole thing, you may thank yourself if you ever have an encounter with a fed or have an insurance claim.

I guess I am just overly dense but the TCDS I read lists the needed placards. I did email Cessna and will share their reply.

I am not arguing for the sake if arguing. This is a good discussion and I am trying to understand it better. I don't have a certified airplane any more so personally I could give a shit less really.

I've had an insurance claim, 2 as a matter if fact. Never got asked for an AFM and was never denied coverage.

gbflyer wrote:

dogpilot wrote:Lets not beat this to death, but lets say a fed comes and queries you about required placards and markings. The AFM would have those required items listed, so produce it so he can check compliance. You see it is kind of a circular argument, you need it to show compliance with the TC. Again, if in doubt, just call Cessna's customer support, you can even do it online: https://support.cessna.com/custsupt/csupport/newlogin.jsp

Then if they don't have one, make a note of who and when you called and keep that as a protective record. Call and put paid to the whole thing, you may thank yourself if you ever have an encounter with a fed or have an insurance claim.

I guess I am just overly dense but the TCDS I read lists the needed placards. I did email Cessna and will share their reply.

I am not arguing for the sake if arguing. This is a good discussion and I am trying to understand it better. I don't have a certified airplane any more so personally I could give a shit less really.

I've had an insurance claim, 2 as a matter if fact. Never got asked for an AFM and was never denied coverage.

Oh, give me a break.......arguing for the sake of arguing is why we're here.....

Not really. As to insurance claims, most insurance companies could care less whether you have an AFM, or if your medical or flight review is current. I've talked to my insurance company on this and they said they probably wouldn't renew me in that case. But they'd pay the claim.

MTV

MTV, I agree with gbflyer that the TC does not require it for an early 180. But after looking at my documentation I do think the O in AROW requires it.

I did read the entire TC and for a model 180 it does not say you have to carry the AFM in your plane. And my 1955 Owners Manual, in the Operating Limitations section, has most of the same information that is on the AFM. But there is an asterisk by the "Operating Limitations" title and an important footnote at the bottom:

"Your airplane must be operated in accordance with the CAA-approved Airplane Flight Manual. If there is any information in this section which contradicts the CAA-approved manual, it is to be disregarded."

So that says to me that the Operating Limitations in the Owners Manual do not satisfy the O in AROW for my 180. Only the AFM does. That is why I need to carry it in the plane, not because the TC calls it out in the required equipment (it doesn't). Fortunately, I did find that I actually do have the AFM for my airplane, and it does say at the top "THIS DOCUMENT MUST BE KEPT IN AIRPLANE AT ALL TIMES."

Not to throw this off on a tangent, but we recently filed a claim on one of our club aircraft after a member hit some big bird on takeoff and caved in the leading edge of the right wing. When I called AOPAIA, the first thing I was asked was if the member was current, which he was. Second, was if his medical and flight review were current...and that they'd need copies. Also, copies of his last few pages of his logbook to verify currency. No mention of the AFM by them or the fed that came to investigate it. They were both more interested in the pilot and that his docs were in order.

I just renewed my AOPA insurance, several questions RE:
"Standard" Airworthiness Cert?
Current Medical and BFR(their language?)
FAA discipline?
Declined, cancelled, refused, accident, incident, claim ?
Guilty to DUI, drug charges, possession of drugs, reckless or drunk driving.

So, it looks like the attorneys are all looking for ways to deny claims or coverage.

Again, just having completed a large lawsuit with the insurance companies. A copy of the AFM as present in the aircraft at the time of the incident was a required discovery document. The fed that came to the aircraft out of the Maryland FISDO took the AFM with him to review after the incident and returned it to me.

Again, your experience may differ. However it was worth $650,000 to me to have it.

dogpilot wrote:Again, just having completed a large lawsuit with the insurance companies. A copy of the AFM as present in the aircraft at the time of the incident was a required discovery document. The fed that came to the aircraft out of the Maryland FISDO took the AFM with him to review after the incident and returned it to me.

Again, your experience may differ. However it was worth $650,000 to me to have it.

And, that's the point......you may roll your plane up in a ball and not have the required documents and all is peachy keen.

OR, you may wind up in an extended legal "discussion" with the FAA, your insurance company, or your neighbor.

I guess my point is this: if all it takes to be "LEGAL" is a two page document readily available from the manufacturer, why wouldn't you get that document?

As to the early 180, the TCDS clearly states that certain airplanes do NOT require an AFM. In regulations, that means, as you figured out by looking at the AFM, that if you are not SPECIFICALLY exempt, then you must have one.

And, if one has been issued for your plane, it must be carried in the plane. The plane is not "airworthy" without it......same as late model planes are not legal without their POH, because IT contains the AFM data.

MTV

I have yet to get an acknowledgement back from Cessna on this. Not surprised.

Well made it all the way to Lake Superior (Duluth, MN) and back to Idaho with nary a squawk with the plane... so no logbook entries needed. Though am due for an oil change now.