I have a new to me C180J, O-470-50, with the Robertson STOL kit. The aircraft was previously on floats for a short period in the 1990's.
I'm looking specifically an instructor who is very experienced in flying a 180 with the Robertson STOL kit. Especially when it comes to crosswind techniques.

I have around 550 total hours. 220 tailwheel hours. I only have about 20 hours in the C180. Most of my tailwheel time is in an RV-6. The RV-6 doesn't care if there's a 20 knot crosswind. I barely notices it.

I found out the hard way that the 180 with the Robertson kit does in fact knows what a crosswind is. I received about 10 hours of dual instruction between a '56 C180 and my 180 with a good 60 landings. Unfortunately, most of the training was wind within 20-30 degrees of centerline. We did do a few takeoff and landings in 10kt crosswinds in the '56. It wasn't much of an issue. A 13kt crosswind in the 180J with a couple notches of flaps turned out to be a big issue. Even though the Robertson POH supplement said it shouldn't be...

It turns out that part of my problem was the plane still had the big rudder centering springs left over from the floats that were on it. I was wondering why it was so hard to work the rudder...


Anyway, I can't seem to find anyone with Robertson STOL experience to receive training. All the instructors that I've talked to have never flown a 180 with the Robertson kit.

Can anyone recommend an instructor west of the Mississippi? I'm in California. The plane is currently being rebuilt at Beegles in Colorado.

I have a couple thousand hours in RSTOL equipped 185s, but zero in RSTOL 180 (though I do have 180 time, just not RSTOL).

Those rudder centering springs are ugly, no doubt. As to the RSTOL in a crosswind, I settled on three point landings in any significant crosswind. And, understanding the function of the RSTOL kit is essential as well, particularly how it functions with flap deflection.

Here's the way it's SUPPOSED to work: The ailerons deploy (deflect) in conjunction with flap deflection. I don't recall the exact number of degrees at each flap setting, but that's not terribly important. What is important is that with ten degrees of flap, the ailerons deflect a little, a little more with twenty flaps, and more yet with thirty flaps. What is important is that, at forty flaps, the ailerons actually retract some. So, the greatest aileron droop SHOULD be at thirty degrees of flap deflection. Be sure to check your airplane and ensure that's the way they're rigged. I have seen them rigged such that they came down even more with forty degrees of flap....not good.

In crosswinds, I nearly always use twenty degrees of flap to both minimize the flap deflection and also the aileron deflection as well.

I am a CFI, but I haven't flown these planes for a while. I'd go out and practice landings at various flap settings. Also, verify that the rudder actually deflects right and left the specified number of degrees given in the Type Certificate Data Sheet.

Finally, have you had the airplane on grease plates to verify gear alignment? If not, I'd get a good mechanic who knows how to align gear on a Cessna do the deed......ALL mechanics I've ever met HATE gear alignment, so you may have to do some arm twisting.

The 180/185 is not an RV when it comes to runway behaviour, but they SHOULDN"T be ugly.

I'd verify all the stuff I noted above FIRST, including gear alignment, THEN decide whether you need more training.

I've got in a strange to me 185 and first landing had a fight on my hands.....got the gear aligned and it was a pussy cat. Crosswind will simply exacerbate that tendency.

MTV,

Thank you for all of the great feedback and advice!

One thing I don't see in the RSTOL POH is max flap speed at 10 degrees flaps. Is it safe to deploy 10 degrees at 120kts like you can in the 180J without the RSTOL kit or do I have to slow down to 90?

Bigmikeh24 wrote:
One thing I don't see in the RSTOL POH is max flap speed at 10 degrees flaps. Is it safe to deploy 10 degrees at 120kts like you can in the 180J without the RSTOL kit or do I have to slow down to 90?

Look in your POH in the “Before Landing” section. Under the “Wing Flaps” entry, you may find it specified with an airspeed limitation.

IIRC in the 206, flap speed went from 140 to 110 with the robertson. But at 110 you could go full flaps. Should be in the Robertson POH.

Squash wrote:

Bigmikeh24 wrote:
One thing I don't see in the RSTOL POH is max flap speed at 10 degrees flaps. Is it safe to deploy 10 degrees at 120kts like you can in the 180J without the RSTOL kit or do I have to slow down to 90?

Look in your POH in the “Before Landing” section. Under the “Wing Flaps” entry, you may find it specified with an airspeed limitation.

My POH also has the maximum flap speed listed at the bottom of the Airspeed Correction Table.

What part of Ca?

Rob wrote:What part of Ca?

SF Bay Area

I also have a new to me 185 with RSTOL, and have the same issues you do in crosswinds. I had to abandon a takeoff on floats in a modest crosswind from the right a couple weeks ago, something my old 185 would have handled fine. 20 degrees of flaps, full right aileron, and it was still picking the wing up before the plane was ready to fly.

I am wondering if it was a mistake to get a plane with RSTOL. It's slow flight is not impressive by any means either.

My old plane had Flint wing extensions. I am kind of afraid to put wing extensions on the RSTOL plane as it will likely further reduce aileron authority.

I have a RSTOL 180 and we have a RSTOL 185 in our group here at F49 in Slaton, Texas. A couple of our guys are CFI's and one owns a 185 but has a lot of time in our RSTOL's. We fly in the wind every time we fly here so you may want to consider dropping down from Scott Mach's and fly with us/him?

Also, I put BLR vg's on mine, and it made a world of difference. I really like it but I'm only comfortable up to a 25 knot crosswind in it. I haven't been able to fly as much this year so need to work on my proficiency as well.

Ross4289 wrote:I also have a new to me 185 with RSTOL, and have the same issues you do in crosswinds. I had to abandon a takeoff on floats in a modest crosswind from the right a couple weeks ago, something my old 185 would have handled fine. 20 degrees of flaps, full right aileron, and it was still picking the wing up before the plane was ready to fly.

I am wondering if it was a mistake to get a plane with RSTOL. It's slow flight is not impressive by any means either.

My old plane had Flint wing extensions. I am kind of afraid to put wing extensions on the RSTOL plane as it will likely further reduce aileron authority.

If your comment that "slow flight is not impressive by any means" is in fact true, there is something wrong. The no joke stall speed of an RSTOL 185 with full flaps is 37 knots, and I've done that in one many times. I have seen RSTOL kits that were improperly installed, but not many.

The only beef I ever had with the RSTOL is that the stall break at very high AOA can be abrupt. We installed Sportsman STOL kits on the RSTOL 185 and 206, which took away ALL the "abruptness" and in the case of the 185 (which has crappy ailerons in any case), the aileron gap seals included in the Sportsman kit gave me back a good bit of aileron authority.

I love the RSTOL kits, and the Sportsman kit makes it even better, rock solid at very high AOA.

If you're not up for a Sportsman kit (they are truly wonderful), find an aileron gap seal kit, and install that. The 206 has much better ailerons than the 185, and doesn't lose as much aileron authority as the 180/185.



MTV

I had a separate thread on trying to figure out why mine wouldn't fly very slow, and it never got resolved. I checked the flap and aileron travels with a smart level, and they are indeed correct per the STC.

I have VG's and the camber cuff wing (185F)

The ASI reads 50 knots when it stalls, though I stalled north, east, south, and west, and the average ground speed was mid 40's knots.

Tried with forward, mid, and aft CG and basically no difference.

It's possible your airspeed instrument is off a bit.....ancient tech there. Otherwise, I can't explain what you're seeing. That said, I've flown a number of 185s with the RSTOL, and they've all stalled slower than that. I'm sure that doesn't help much.....sorry.

In my Robertson POH for a 69 U206, Under letdown,it says first notch of flaps can be applied at 160 mph.

In the beginning I was just like you. I have a 180K with RSTOL and early on, I’d say less than 100 hours in it, I was very nervous because I’d heard all the horror stories of the RSTOL. It seemed like everyone I talked to said I needed to have it removed, I scared myself a couple of times, and just didn’t have any confidence in my ability to learn the airplane. After about 250 hours in the plane I was glad I didn’t have it removed. My 180 has a stock wing, no other cuff, no VGs, just RTOL, the best thing is to practice. I found that keeping your feet alive is just as important as what you do with the ailerons. I fly west Texas like TangoCub and it’s windy here most of the time and I’ve gotten comfortable with 25-30 knot crosswinds, but it took time.

After all that rambling I guess what I’m saying is go fly, don’t let RSTOL get in your head, it is just a stock Cessna wing if you don’t pull flaps, work your way up to higher wind speeds. Just my two cents!

Mine is a 180K as well. Come out to F49 and let’s fly together.

Planning on going to Idaho first weekend in August, pack your tent let’s go!

Like mtv, I have spent a lot of time flying 185s with the Robertson kit, as well as a variety of other mods to the wings. I also have a bit of time in a 180H with the Robertson.

Unlike mtv, I almost always land with full flaps. At full flaps, you get back the aileron authority and I like landing as slow as is reasonable. I have handled 38 kts at a 40 degree angle, though I always wait until it is all just right. I think I touched wheels two times before I had the right situation to pull power and stop the third time the tires touched.

Straight wings are fine, but if you work and learn the wing with a Robertson kit, it starts to really gel. At that point, may as well keep going and get all the other goodies, including VGs, Sportsman, and if possible, WingX. Makes an amazing airplane even better.

Hi Bigmike,

I asked in hopes you might be SoCal, which we find ourselves at regularly in our off season. I do not instruct, but have a decent amount of droopy aileron time in RTOL's and other droopers. I am close to Yuma, AZ if you ever find yourself down this way and want to compare notes or fly another RSTOL to tune up on, your welcome to drop in, just shoot me a PM.

Hi Ross,
When you first posted of your RSTOL woes, I asked about rigging. Rigging in general should start from the very beginning and encompass more than just deflections. Everything from eccentrics and engine mount bushings to RSTOL specifics. However something in your last post makes me wonder if you just haven't made friends with the RSTOL attributes... this;

Ross4289 wrote: I had to abandon a takeoff on floats in a modest crosswind from the right a couple weeks ago, something my old 185 would have handled fine. 20 degrees of flaps, full right aileron, and it was still picking the wing up before the plane was ready to fly.

If the wing was lifting before your old 185, it was by definition flying before your old 185. RSTOL's are not fire breathing dragons, but like all changes, their positive attributes come with compromise. A lighter loaded wing is just going to behave like a lighter loaded wing...

FWIW, Like Troy I am a 99.999% of the time full flapper regardless of the wind. Very few situations I can think of give me reason to want to land faster than an airplane is capable of. And as MTV points out, knowing how the RSTOL droop behaves is critical for those that might be a little heavy on traditional aileron dependency for directional control. Reducing flaps 40 to flaps 30 because of wind will do the opposite of what such an individual is looking for.

I also see no merit in prematurely extending flaps at high speeds. Walk the ramp at a Cessna heavy airstrip and look at the undersides of flaps. It won't take long to see who knows how to slow down, and who relies on flaps as the bottoms of those will be concave (and the flap track rollers will be wore out). 18X's are pretty draggy beasts, let the airframe slow you up, if pulling full flaps takes very much more muscle than it did in the barn, you're going too fast, do your ship a favor and think out ahead of it.

My experience with RSTOL has been that the bigger the wind (specially sustained ones) the more they'll make you look like a Rockstar, but you do have to do some of that pilot shit...

Take care, Rob