mtv wrote:A question for the OP: If you can’t find a CFI to fly with now, how do you plan to get certified and legal to fly that plane? Also, have you considered the ramifications of an accident, even one that’s caused by a mechanical, not a pilot? Insurance isn’t going to be happy.

It’s an amphib, so presumably you’re current and legal to fly it on wheels. Assuming you’ve kinda figured that out, find a good float CFI somewhere, fly there on wheels, and learn to fly the thing.

On the other hand, in your initial discussion, are you talking about landings on wheels or on floats? Very different evolutions.

MTV

albravo wrote:Here is a little more info on the whole process, not just the touchdown phase that is giving me trouble.

<<Hi Allan. My comments are personal preferences so seek a CFI for real assessment and instruction. I've flown a stock C-182 briefly on floats and recently a C-180 w/P-Ponk, Sportsman, Wing X, EDO 2960 straight floats. I've only flown a C-172 with MT prop so not much to say except the spin up and down rpms faster than a metal prop. Most of my float time is in a C-185 on straight floats>>

The plane (AKA Wanda) is a ’63 182, fresh PPonk, JPI EDM-900, 2 blade MT, Sportsman STOL, Wing-Ex, EDO 2790 amphibs, We usually start with 62 gallons usable, I’ve got 50 lbs of dead weight and 15 lbs of survival gear in the baggage compartment to compensate for considerable nose heaviness. I will be adding some weight in the tail eventually.

<<Some I hear add measured water as variable aft ballast to the rear float compartments and adjust accordingly to attain a desirable CG. It's a weight of about 8# per gallon and some measurement of the arm to the compartment and effect on CG is required prior to flight. A dipstick can be used to maintain and adjust the ballast. Confirm this with your A&P and CFI before however>>

Most training has been done with a light breeze, not enough wind to make the water rough but enough to give some definition to the landing surface.

Takeoff has been pretty straightforward. Trim neutral, 20 degrees flaps (have experimented with 30 but didn’t seem to help) water rudders up, yoke full back, full power in two quick stages (to minimize water on prop) then push her over onto the step when the bow wave is behind the strut and/or when the nose quits rising. Find the sweet spot, hold it there, then she flies off when ready. I’ve read the 2790s require a different technique but they are all I’ve ever known so that hasn’t been an issue.

<<I've not flown 2790's. On straight floats I prefer to trim for the sweet spot near takeoff speed with the load onboard not just a neutral setting. Find that trim position (yes I know elevator trim tab versus adjustable stabilizer) and mark it by operating near takeoff speed with partial power while still on the water and set the trim to create a hands off control attitude that can be preset and repeated if desired>>

Typically I climb to about 500agl and keep the speed within the white arc. Near the end of downwind I add 10 degrees of flap, another 20 on base, then when I’m lined up on final I add 40 flap, push in the mixture and prop, set trim full nose up and do a GUMP check. I find a power setting that will give me 70mph (have to push the nose down to achieve this) and about 300 fpm decent. I flare when I can see fine detail on the water below, bring the nose up to a landing attitude and wait. If I start to sink too quickly I add power to slow the rate of descent until I feel the floats make contact then I hold that attitude and pull the power out. Things get pretty quiet and comfortable then, and I have to remind myself to keep flying the plane until I’m off the step and the water rudders go down.

<<You are permitted to land with less flap deflection on final and should practice that. Sometimes 20-30* results in a lower rate of sink near the water that requires less correction with power. Trim and elevator control airspeed for me; power controls rate of descent. You or your CFI may choose otherwise. Set and stabilize the reference airspeed (Vref; typically 1.3 Vso slowing to 1.2 near the water) prior to landing. 2-300 fpm ok (I rarely look) but I do like to put the landing zone or spot on top of the nose of the cowl and do whatever it takes to keep it there with power adjustments until the flare. Try less flap deflection and see if that helps the last minute drop on the water. Feel for a quick uncommanded attitude change just prior to touchdown. They do that sometimes>>

note: bolded portion is where I'm struggling.

So far I’ve read the FAA’s guide to seaplanes, C. Marin Faure’s book on flying floats and Burke Meese’s book (my favorite) as well as flying with 3 very experienced float pilots. Everybody has a slightly different way of doing things but the above is how we’re doing it so far. I’d love to hear comments and ideas.

albravo wrote:Here is a little more info on the whole process, not just the touchdown phase that is giving me trouble.

The plane (AKA Wanda) is a ’63 182, fresh PPonk, JPI EDM-900, 2 blade MT, Sportsman STOL, Wing-Ex, EDO 2790 amphibs, We usually start with 62 gallons usable, I’ve got 50 lbs of dead weight and 15 lbs of survival gear in the baggage compartment to compensate for considerable nose heaviness. I will be adding some weight in the tail eventually.

Most training has been done with a light breeze, not enough wind to make the water rough but enough to give some definition to the landing surface.

Takeoff has been pretty straightforward. Trim neutral, 20 degrees flaps (have experimented with 30 but didn’t seem to help) water rudders up, yoke full back, full power in two quick stages (to minimize water on prop) then push her over onto the step when the bow wave is behind the strut and/or when the nose quits rising. Find the sweet spot, hold it there, then she flies off when ready. I’ve read the 2790s require a different technique but they are all I’ve ever known so that hasn’t been an issue.

Typically I climb to about 500agl and keep the speed within the white arc. Near the end of downwind I add 10 degrees of flap, another 20 on base, then when I’m lined up on final I add 40 flap, push in the mixture and prop, set trim full nose up and do a GUMP check. I find a power setting that will give me 70mph (have to push the nose down to achieve this) and about 300 fpm decent. I flare when I can see fine detail on the water below, bring the nose up to a landing attitude and wait. If I start to sink too quickly I add power to slow the rate of descent until I feel the floats make contact then I hold that attitude and pull the power out. Things get pretty quiet and comfortable then, and I have to remind myself to keep flying the plane until I’m off the step and the water rudders go down.

note: bolded portion is where I'm struggling.

So far I’ve read the FAA’s guide to seaplanes, C. Marin Faure’s book on flying floats and Burke Meese’s book (my favorite) as well as flying with 3 very experienced float pilots. Everybody has a slightly different way of doing things but the above is how we’re doing it so far. I’d love to hear comments and ideas.

mtv wrote:
First thing I would try: use 30 degrees of flap on final, rather than 40. That will reduce drag in the flare considerably, and things will happen a bit slower. Play with that for a bit and see if things improve. If so, perfect that, then give full flaps another try after you’ve got the timing down better.

MTV

albravo wrote:

mtv wrote:
First thing I would try: use 30 degrees of flap on final, rather than 40. That will reduce drag in the flare considerably, and things will happen a bit slower. Play with that for a bit and see if things improve. If so, perfect that, then give full flaps another try after you’ve got the timing down better.

MTV

Just less flap? Everything else still the same? 70 mph? I've never looked but I assume that means I've been touching down around 65 or maybe a bit slower.

I'm excited to get back up there and try this.

Allan

PA1195 wrote:https://www.exploresquamish.com

Hey Mike you're about due for some fresh salt air and float flying. I suggested to Allan privately that he seriously try to get you to be a tourist and visit. Might turn into a good vacation and some water fun.

Gary

albravo wrote:Here is a little more info on the whole process, not just the touchdown phase that is giving me trouble.

The plane (AKA Wanda) is a ’63 182, fresh PPonk, JPI EDM-900, 2 blade MT, Sportsman STOL, Wing-Ex, EDO 2790 amphibs, We usually start with 62 gallons usable, I’ve got 50 lbs of dead weight and 15 lbs of survival gear in the baggage compartment to compensate for considerable nose heaviness. I will be adding some weight in the tail eventually.

Most training has been done with a light breeze, not enough wind to make the water rough but enough to give some definition to the landing surface.

Takeoff has been pretty straightforward. Trim neutral, 20 degrees flaps (have experimented with 30 but didn’t seem to help) water rudders up, yoke full back, full power in two quick stages (to minimize water on prop) then push her over onto the step when the bow wave is behind the strut and/or when the nose quits rising. Find the sweet spot, hold it there, then she flies off when ready. I’ve read the 2790s require a different technique but they are all I’ve ever known so that hasn’t been an issue.

Typically I climb to about 500agl and keep the speed within the white arc. Near the end of downwind I add 10 degrees of flap, another 20 on base, then when I’m lined up on final I add 40 flap, push in the mixture and prop, set trim full nose up and do a GUMP check. I find a power setting that will give me 70mph (have to push the nose down to achieve this) and about 300 fpm decent. I flare when I can see fine detail on the water below, bring the nose up to a landing attitude and wait. If I start to sink too quickly I add power to slow the rate of descent until I feel the floats make contact then I hold that attitude and pull the power out. Things get pretty quiet and comfortable then, and I have to remind myself to keep flying the plane until I’m off the step and the water rudders go down.

note: bolded portion is where I'm struggling.

So far I’ve read the FAA’s guide to seaplanes, C. Marin Faure’s book on flying floats and Burke Meese’s book (my favorite) as well as flying with 3 very experienced float pilots. Everybody has a slightly different way of doing things but the above is how we’re doing it so far. I’d love to hear comments and ideas.

Cary wrote: You should be trimming for your desired final approach speed with your desired flap setting and your desired power setting, so that if you take your hand off the yoke, pitch won't change. That your airplane is nose heavy doesn't change that. If you don't trim properly for the approach, you'll be bobbling and chasing the proper pitch.

Cary